Skeptics Guide to the Universe Forums

General Discussions => Health, Fitness, Nutrition, and Medicine => Topic started by: superdave on May 07, 2019, 09:56:22 AM

Title: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 07, 2019, 09:56:22 AM
are they safe to eat?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 07, 2019, 10:05:25 AM
Why wouldn't they be?

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 07, 2019, 10:06:37 AM
Why wouldn't they be?

Unrefrigerated for over 12 hours?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 07, 2019, 10:15:26 AM
Not following, were they stored in a pot of botulism?  Rinse them off if you're paranoid. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 07, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
Don't eat them. It is not safe. There is a chance that you will get sick. Anything left for more than two hours have had enough time for any bacteria there to reproduce to unsafe levels. So, just throw them out.

Also, egg shells are not impermeable, meaning things and bacteria seep in.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Morvis13 on May 07, 2019, 10:48:57 AM
But the egg was in the pot. submerged under water. With the shell on. I don't think it is disease plagued.
But, Eggs are cheap enough that you really aren't losing much if you play it over safe.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: daniel1948 on May 07, 2019, 11:00:28 AM
They're probably so hard they'll taste terrible. I've left eggs in the water for an extra 30 minutes or so because I got distracted, and they tasted terrible. Even with the heat off, they'll continue cooking until the water has cooled significantly.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 07, 2019, 11:01:18 AM
Eggs were hard boiled.
The water was boiled for 10 min.
They had a shell(not impermeable sure but a barrier
They are hard boiled. 

Any bacteria would have to get through the water, shell, and the exterior surface of the egg.  Take them out of the shell rinse them off and eat them.  Or not, I do think the concern is a bit paranoid. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Rai on May 07, 2019, 11:06:00 AM
You can eat them, but then again why would you ever want to eat a cold hard-boiled egg unless you are starving, a raccoon, or both
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: The Latinist on May 07, 2019, 11:07:37 AM
Unwashed raw eggs can be stored in the shell at room temperature for days, but my understanding is that washing (and boiling) removes a protective layer that makes them more permeable to bacteria. I tend to doubt there would be any issue if one ate such eggs, but there is at least a plausible reason to think they could be less safe than freshly boiled ones.  It comes down to one's tolerance for risk.

The CDC will of course tell you that any cooked food left at room temperature for more than two hours must be discarded.  But they are in the caution business...
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 07, 2019, 11:07:43 AM
Let us know whether or not you die.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 07, 2019, 11:15:21 AM
Throw them out. Two hours is the limit.

The shells are more permeable after boiling and there’s plenty of nutrition to feed a colony of bacteria. Submerged in water is not a safe way to protect them from bacteria, even if the water was boiled.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 07, 2019, 11:53:32 AM
I've specialized in Food safety and poultry safety.

Bacterias can get anywhere. You need -5C to stop them from growing or above 60C to kill them all together. Anything between will grow any bacteria. Even water and you cant brush off bacteria.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: seamas on May 07, 2019, 01:25:04 PM
are they safe to eat?

Pretty sure the farts you will make an hour after consuming it might be deadly to others.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 07, 2019, 03:16:03 PM
are they safe to eat?

Pretty sure the farts you will make an hour after consuming it might be deadly to others.
Oooh, sulphur dioxide. Finest kind stinky.  ;D
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Harry Black on May 07, 2019, 04:35:24 PM
You can eat them, but then again why would you ever want to eat a cold hard-boiled egg unless you are starving, a raccoon, or both
I love em!!! I eat them whole and separate the yolk and whites in my mouth!
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 07, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
You can eat them, but then again why would you ever want to eat a cold hard-boiled egg unless you are starving, a raccoon, or both
Deviled eggs.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: John Albert on May 07, 2019, 09:35:03 PM
I like cold hard boiled eggs in salads as well.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: arthwollipot on May 07, 2019, 10:10:38 PM
I'm not a fan of hardboiled or fried eggs. I like them poached and drizzled with Hollandaise, or scrambled, or in an omelette or frittata. I also don't like them in potato salads. I fork up a nice bit of delicious creamy potato, only to discover that it's rubbery egg white. Potato salad is delicious, but not when they're being deliberately deceptive.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: xenu on May 07, 2019, 11:22:32 PM
I think they would be fine to eat. We used to leave hard boiled eggs out for days as a kid and I'm still alive(not that means anything I could have been just lucky). My motto is when in doubt throw it out. So if you are not sure throw them out. Unless it is your only meal for the day then I would eat them.

On another note I have found the best way to hard boil eggs is to steam them for 15 min and then put them in an ice bath until cooled.  I have found that the shell will peel off the egg effortlessly.  I have done a lot of experimenting with eggs and this has had the best results.

Now back to the topic at hand
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 08, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
The problem with eggs is that if the warm freshly laid eggs are in contact with moist chicken faecal material, as the eggs cool it creates a partial vacuum within the egg which sucks in some of the faecal material contaminating the semiliquid content of the egg.  And then if the egg is inadequately cooked...

Hard boiling the egg and then leaving it overnight in the water won’t be a problem.  The egg, including the shell, is sterile - it’s been heated  to 100 degrees Celsius for several minutes.  The water is sterile, for the same reason.  As the egg and the water. cools, the egg will suck in some of the water, but that’s sterile.  Even if the egg had been taken out of the water there wouldn’t be a problem- the outside of the shell would dry rapidly.  As the egg cools it might suck in a little room air, but room air isn’t usually bacteria laden.

Bacteria generally need a liquid to be able to spread. Hard boiled eggs aren’t liquid.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 08, 2019, 03:31:23 AM
With food I live by the motto: "If in doubt, chuck it out"
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 08, 2019, 10:11:36 AM
1)  we threw them out.  eggs are cheap.
2)  I will try the steaming thing.
3)  hard boiled eggs are delicious even cold.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Calinthalus on May 08, 2019, 10:42:07 AM
I left a jar full of cabbage at room temp for weeks on my hearth.  It was submerged in water (salted) and all kinds of bacteria grew in there.  Delicious.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 08, 2019, 12:15:51 PM
Steaming is how my wife cooks them.  It works fine, I can't imagine having strong feelings about hard boiled eggs, they're so meh.

Throwing them out was a waste of food though, they were fine. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 08, 2019, 02:47:01 PM
I left a jar full of cabbage at room temp for weeks on my hearth.  It was submerged in water (salted) and all kinds of bacteria grew in there.  Delicious.

I'm getting ready to start making my own sauerkraut and pickles for my hot dog stand. I cant wait.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 08, 2019, 02:49:37 PM
1)  we threw them out.  eggs are cheap.
2)  I will try the steaming thing.
3)  hard boiled eggs are delicious even cold.

Try Sous Vide

https://www.seriouseats.com/2013/10/sous-vide-101-all-about-eggs.html

Quote
Let's start off by saying that despite the title of this post, sous-vide eggs are a misnomer. "Slow-cooked eggs" would be a more apt description. Very, very slow-cooked eggs even better. It's only through association with the equipment used to cook sous-vide (vacuum-sealed) foods that the term sous-vide eggs has stuck, despite the fact that there is no vacuum involved in their preparation. Still, it's the common term for them, so I'll use it.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Calinthalus on May 08, 2019, 03:08:31 PM
I left a jar full of cabbage at room temp for weeks on my hearth.  It was submerged in water (salted) and all kinds of bacteria grew in there.  Delicious.

I'm getting ready to start making my own sauerkraut and pickles for my hot dog stand. I cant wait.
Oh, for summer I make Lemon Dill Kraut.  Just add some dried dill flakes and a little lemon juice to your brine/cabbage mix for fermentation.



Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Swagomatic on May 08, 2019, 03:26:06 PM
You can eat them, but then again why would you ever want to eat a cold hard-boiled egg unless you are starving, a raccoon, or both

lol, why is that ringing a bell with me?  Isn't that a quote from Ronald Reagan or something?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 08, 2019, 03:31:25 PM

Hard boiling the egg and then leaving it overnight in the water won’t be a problem.  The egg, including the shell, is sterile - it’s been heated  to 100 degrees Celsius for several minutes. 

Not necessarily. To hard boil an egg the inside temperature needs to be 150  - 155f. Not 212. If you boil them for several minutes they are over cooked.


Quote
The water is sterile, for the same reason.  As the egg and the water. cools, the egg will suck in some of the water, but that’s sterile. 

The water will initially be sterile, but bacteria have ways of spreading and once the water has cooled and exposed to the environment it is not sterile.

Quote
Even if the egg had been taken out of the water there wouldn’t be a problem- the outside of the shell would dry rapidly.  As the egg cools it might suck in a little room air, but room air isn’t usually bacteria laden.

Bacteria generally need a liquid to be able to spread. Hard boiled eggs aren’t liquid.

If bacteria is on the outside of an egg shell it has a good chance of getting in.

There is enough liquid in hard boiled eggs to sustain bacteria.

The question is not if the eggs will go bad, they will. The question is how long before they are unsafe to eat.

The standard conservative answer for cooked food is two hours. For hard boiled eggs left in cool water it might be longer, but I wouldn’t risk it.

Throwing them out was the right choice. Little benefit to eating them but with a high risk. While the downside of tossing them is minimal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 08, 2019, 03:34:31 PM

Throwing them out was a waste of food though, they were fine.

They probably were fine.

The question is if there was a 1 in 10,000 chance they were bad is that worth the risk?

Suppose it was 1 in 100, or 1 in 10

Not refrigerating them was a waste of food.

Throwing them out was the right call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 08, 2019, 03:38:57 PM
You could have pickled the eggs.

Now I want some red pickled eggs and beets. Yum!
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Friendly Angel on May 08, 2019, 04:37:48 PM
I had a 100 year old egg at a Cantonese restaurant once.  It was interesting.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 08, 2019, 06:41:50 PM
it's like 1.99 for a dozen eggs! 
its not a big deal to toss a few.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 08, 2019, 07:58:10 PM
You can buy hardboiled eggs in bags now, most supermarkets around here carry them. Expensive compared to raw eggs, but for some folks time is worth more than money.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 08, 2019, 08:34:38 PM
You can buy hardboiled eggs in bags now, most supermarkets around here carry them. Expensive compared to raw eggs, but for some folks time is worth more than money.

Don't use those for pickling though, they add a preservative that makes the egg absorb brine strangely. The whites end up rubbery with half the penetration.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 08, 2019, 11:00:45 PM

Throwing them out was a waste of food though, they were fine.

They probably were fine.

The question is if there was a 1 in 10,000 chance they were bad is that worth the risk?

Suppose it was 1 in 100, or 1 in 10

Not refrigerating them was a waste of food.

Throwing them out was the right call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: The Latinist on May 08, 2019, 11:16:59 PM
Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

The egg is not necessarily heated to 100° C; indeed, most hard-boiled eggs reach an internal temperature significantly lower than that (I've seen 160° F given as the ideal temperature for the interior to reach, which is only about 70° C). At such a temperature a significant portion of bacteria will be killed, but not necessarily all bacteria. If allowed to sit in the 'danger zone' long enough, the small number of bacteria that remain may multiply rapidly.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 08, 2019, 11:18:54 PM

Throwing them out was a waste of food though, they were fine.

They probably were fine.

The question is if there was a 1 in 10,000 chance they were bad is that worth the risk?

Suppose it was 1 in 100, or 1 in 10

Not refrigerating them was a waste of food.

Throwing them out was the right call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

Because after they were cooked they sat in the danger zone all night where it can grow bacteria.  If you cooked the apple the same rules would apply, the raw apple does not grow salmonella. 

this is just an article but it points to where the data came from.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/520934-how-long-can-hard-boiled-eggs-be-left-unrefrigerated/

Quote
Leaving hard-boiled eggs at room temperature for extended periods of time allows for dangerous bacteria, including salmonella, to grow at a rapid pace. FoodSafety.gov states that foodborne pathogens grow quickly between 40 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit, commonly known as the danger zone. Average room temperature ranges from 68 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit. Refrigerators store foods below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, slowing the rate of bacteria growth. If your refrigerator does not have a built-in temperature gauge, you can purchase an inexpensive refrigerator thermometer from a kitchen supply store.

Quote
Since hard-boiled eggs are cooked, you may believe they are safer than raw eggs. According to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, hard-boiled eggs are actually more susceptible to bacterial contamination because the cooking process damages a protective layer on the shell of the egg. Keep your hard-boiled eggs safe by refrigerating them immediately after cooking them, and eat them within one week.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 08, 2019, 11:32:00 PM

Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

You’re comparing apples to eggs.

Quote
They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

That environment is a kitchen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 09, 2019, 02:17:28 AM
Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

The egg is not necessarily heated to 100° C; indeed, most hard-boiled eggs reach an internal temperature significantly lower than that (I've seen 160° F given as the ideal temperature for the interior to reach, which is only about 70° C). At such a temperature a significant portion of bacteria will be killed, but not necessarily all bacteria. If allowed to sit in the 'danger zone' long enough, the small number of bacteria that remain may multiply rapidly.

70 degrees Celsius for several minutes will kill all bacteria of concern to humans.  Pasteurisation of milk is at lower temperatures for much shorter times, and it makes it safe to keep the milk at room temperature for hours.

Hard boiling eggs denatures permanently the proteins in the egg.  Why wouldn’t it denature permanently the proteins within bacteria?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 09, 2019, 04:45:00 AM
You can buy hardboiled eggs in bags now, most supermarkets around here carry them. Expensive compared to raw eggs, but for some folks time is worth more than money.

Don't use those for pickling though, they add a preservative that makes the egg absorb brine strangely. The whites end up rubbery with half the penetration.
I'm not a chef-wanna-be, so I buy that kind of thing. Probably why I'm still alive.  ;)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 09, 2019, 05:05:21 AM
I reckon I should have been dead, plenty of times... maybe I just have an iron gut but I have eaten plenty of hard boiled eggs, days old.  Mind you, I am careful when I crack them into the frying pan, to not get too much chicken shit in the mix.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Calinthalus on May 09, 2019, 08:10:06 AM

Also, the egg/apple comparison is different because of acid levels.  When doing home canning, the amount of time and pressure you have to use is directly set by the acidity of the item in question.  You have to get pole beans to a higher internal temperature than tomatoes, for instance.  You have to do pole beans under pressure if you want them done in the same time you can do tomatoes in a unpressurized bath.  Apples are considered a high acid food for canning purposes.  I've never heard of anyone canning eggs, but I would think they were low acid.


Source (https://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-tips/t--1396/canning-temperatures-and-processing-times.asp)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 09, 2019, 09:16:39 AM
I reckon I should have been dead, plenty of times... maybe I just have an iron gut but I have eaten plenty of hard boiled eggs, days old.  Mind you, I am careful when I crack them into the frying pan, to not get too much chicken shit in the mix.
Granted, I'm no position to criticize this sort of thing but...

I was mildly amused that the structure of this paragraph had me picturing you frying a hard boiled egg.   
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 09, 2019, 10:40:47 AM
Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

The egg is not necessarily heated to 100° C; indeed, most hard-boiled eggs reach an internal temperature significantly lower than that (I've seen 160° F given as the ideal temperature for the interior to reach, which is only about 70° C). At such a temperature a significant portion of bacteria will be killed, but not necessarily all bacteria. If allowed to sit in the 'danger zone' long enough, the small number of bacteria that remain may multiply rapidly.

70 degrees Celsius for several minutes will kill all bacteria of concern to humans.  Pasteurisation of milk is at lower temperatures for much shorter times, and it makes it safe to keep the milk at room temperature for hours.

No No No no. Pasteurized will spoil if you have opened it and left it at room temperature for hours. Pausterization Doesn't protect food after it is opened. It protects it longer while it is unopened.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 09, 2019, 10:57:13 AM
I reckon I should have been dead, plenty of times... maybe I just have an iron gut but I have eaten plenty of hard boiled eggs, days old.  Mind you, I am careful when I crack them into the frying pan, to not get too much chicken shit in the mix.

Can one build a resistance to salmonella?

If the probability of an egg going bad in room temperature water after 10 hours is 1 in 10,000 then your anecdote doesn't prove safety. Even if it's 1 in 1000. And if it's 1 in 100 it's still not proof, but if it's 1 in 10 then it's luck.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 09, 2019, 10:58:04 AM
People.

Food Safety is basically risk assessment. The question of how safe is it, is variable. What the FDA recommends as safe is based on Thousands of people following said recommendation and trying to prevent one failure in them. So if something has a risk of 1:1000, that is unsafe for the FDA as more that 100,000 would likely eat it and 10 people would be ill. For an individual, that risk is might be satisfying as it would be unlikely for you to fall ill if you eat said food 10 times.

You can eat raw milk, eggs, and other foods for all your life and never fall ill. So it depends on how you want to risk it.

Same goes for refrigerated cooked food. Foods with preservatives like salt or artificial would last longer at room temperature and not generate enough bacteria to be a concern. The rest will create bacterias.

An Apple will not grow bacterias in the flesh if it is uncut, and the skin is not nutritious enough for most bacteria, so you can eat a week old apple. A cut apple, the flesh will oxidize and that reduces the bacterial growth, allowing for it to last longer, but half an apple will spoil in a day or less.

Sterile food left in the kitchen counter is no longer sterile after 2 hours. It will be contaminated by any bacteria it comes into contact with. And the kitchen is probably the 2nd most contaminated place in your house after the bathroom.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: The Latinist on May 09, 2019, 11:12:12 AM
Why would an unshelled sterile hard boiled egg left in boiled sterile water overnight be unsafe, whereas an uncooked apple, with all numbers of bacteria, left in a fruit bowl on a kitchen top for several days be safe to eat raw?

Once the egg and the water are heated to 100 degrees Celsius they’re bacteria free.  They’ll only be contaminated with dangerous bacteria if they come from the air.  And if you live in such an environment, everything you eat will be potentially contaminated.

The egg is not necessarily heated to 100° C; indeed, most hard-boiled eggs reach an internal temperature significantly lower than that (I've seen 160° F given as the ideal temperature for the interior to reach, which is only about 70° C). At such a temperature a significant portion of bacteria will be killed, but not necessarily all bacteria. If allowed to sit in the 'danger zone' long enough, the small number of bacteria that remain may multiply rapidly.

70 degrees Celsius for several minutes will kill all bacteria of concern to humans.  Pasteurisation of milk is at lower temperatures for much shorter times, and it makes it safe to keep the milk at room temperature for hours.

Hard boiling eggs denatures permanently the proteins in the egg.  Why wouldn’t it denature permanently the proteins within bacteria?

Your claim was that the egg reached 100° C, which, as I pointed out, is very unlikely to be true. The fact that you completely ignore this serious error on your part is telling.

Secondly, there is no guarantee that the internal temperature of the egg actually reached '70° C for several minutes'. That is the temperature which many sources say the interior should reach, not that at which it should be held for 'several minutes.'  Moreover, there is no guarantee that an egg that is hardboiled actually reached that temperature; it does not have to do so to become hard-boiled. Indeed, many people would say that an egg held at 160°F for 'several minutes' was significantly overcooked.

Finally, pasteurization does not sterilize milk.  Milk that has been pasteurized has significantly fewer bacteria than unpasteurized milk, but it does not have no bacteria.  This is why an unopened container of pasteurized milk will eventually spoil.  To sterilize milk requires that it be ultrapasteurized at temperatures of 138°C.

No No No no. Pasteurized will spoil if you have opened it and left it at room temperature for hours. Pausterization Doesn't protect food after it is opened. It protects it longer while it is unopened.

Well, to be fair, if you start with fewer bacteria, it will generally take longer for it to spoil even if opened and left at room temperature than if it had not been pasteurized because the bacteria will have less of a head start, so to speak.

What should be made clear, though, is that a boiled egg is more 'opened' than an unwashed, unboiled egg, and is therefore more open to subsequent bacterial contamination.

ETA: As I said from the start, it is probable -- perhaps it's even highly probable -- that the eggs in question were safe to eat. But I think that it is far from correct to say or imply, as some in this thread have, that the egg is necessarily sterile after having been boiled and left out in a pot of water overnight. Probably safe? Yes. Necessarily sterile? No.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 09, 2019, 02:41:21 PM
umm

what about traveling downwind faster than the wind?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 09, 2019, 02:46:12 PM
You can buy hardboiled eggs in bags now, most supermarkets around here carry them. Expensive compared to raw eggs, but for some folks time is worth more than money.

Don't use those for pickling though, they add a preservative that makes the egg absorb brine strangely. The whites end up rubbery with half the penetration.
I'm not a chef-wanna-be, so I buy that kind of thing. Probably why I'm still alive.  ;)

I buy those at the grocery store for lunch all the time, sometimes I make egg salad with them. Just don't pickle with them , you get poor results. I have tried.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: The Latinist on May 09, 2019, 04:10:15 PM
what about traveling downwind faster than the wind?

What about it?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: wastrel on May 09, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
what about traveling downwind faster than the wind?

What about it?

I thought you were here for these threads, but it looks like you missed them by like only a month or two:

Directly Downwind Faster than the Wind (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,27537.0.html)
Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind, Take Two (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,30276.0.html)

Incredibly, horrifically, stupidly tedious discussion lasting WAAAAY too many pages.

ETA: Fixed first link
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: John Albert on May 09, 2019, 04:52:36 PM
I thought you were here for these threads, but it looks like you missed them by like only a month or two:

Directly Downwind Faster than the Wind (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,30276.0.html)
Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind, Take Two (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,30276.0.html)

Incredibly, horrifically, stupidly tedious discussion lasting WAAAAY too many pages.

Now that's some good skeptical discourse!
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 09, 2019, 06:47:23 PM
You can buy hardboiled eggs in bags now, most supermarkets around here carry them. Expensive compared to raw eggs, but for some folks time is worth more than money.

Don't use those for pickling though, they add a preservative that makes the egg absorb brine strangely. The whites end up rubbery with half the penetration.
I'm not a chef-wanna-be, so I buy that kind of thing. Probably why I'm still alive.  ;)

I buy those at the grocery store for lunch all the time, sometimes I make egg salad with them. Just don't pickle with them , you get poor results. I have tried.
I buy them when I want instant deviled eggs.

Take four eggs, sliced lengthwise. Top with Guldens'™ brown mustard. Eat.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: xenu on May 09, 2019, 07:34:30 PM
Devil eggs are the best. I can eat them like popcorn.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 09, 2019, 07:45:41 PM
Devil eggs are the best. I can eat them like popcorn.
I like them so much I have to limit myself to six a month.

Or week.

Maybe day.

Something like that, anyway.  >:D
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Swagomatic on May 09, 2019, 07:54:37 PM
Devil eggs are the best. I can eat them like popcorn.
I like them so much I have to limit myself to six a month.

Or week.

Maybe day.

Something like that, anyway.  >:D

My mom used to make deviled eggs out of our Easter eggs.  I remember there were a few that always had dye on them.  I know she refrigerated them up until Easter morning, but they sat around un-refrigerated for hours, at least, before they were prepared.  I can't swear to it, but I don't think anyone ever got sick.  I would never take the chance now, though.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 09, 2019, 08:05:14 PM
We saved the easter eggs until Halloween night.  >:D

Had to be damn careful handling them after they'd sat in a barn through an Indiana summer.  ::)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 09, 2019, 09:53:01 PM
what about traveling downwind faster than the wind?

What about it?

I thought you were here for these threads, but it looks like you missed them by like only a month or two:

Directly Downwind Faster than the Wind (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,27537.0.html)
Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind, Take Two (https://sguforums.com/index.php/topic,30276.0.html)

Incredibly, horrifically, stupidly tedious discussion lasting WAAAAY too many pages.

ETA: Fixed first link

 that was the joke....it's already been 4 pages of egg talk.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 09, 2019, 10:43:05 PM
Even if the eggs are boiled for only one minute, and the eggs reach a temperature of only 70 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the water will take many minutes to cool down to 70 degrees Celsius, during which time the eggs will also be at 70 degrees Celsius (and perhaps higher).  This is better than HTST (high temperature/short time) pasteurisation, which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, and which has a shelf life of one week (two weeks from processing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing

If there’s any doubt about contamination from the kitchen after hard boiling, then it’s not necessary to discard the eggs.  Just re-hard boil them.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 09, 2019, 11:03:39 PM
Even if the eggs are boiled for only one minute, and the eggs reach a temperature of only 70 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the water will take many minutes to cool down to 70 degrees Celsius, during which time the eggs will also be at 70 degrees Celsius (and perhaps higher).  This is better than HTST (high temperature/short time) pasteurisation, which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, and which has a shelf life of one week (two weeks from processing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing

If there’s any doubt about contamination from the kitchen after hard boiling, then it’s not necessary to discard the eggs.  Just re-hard boil them.

That would be fine, except the eggs would be ruined, and could likely have well established salmonella colonies which would be harder to kill than raw eggs.


You don't spend much time in the kitchen, do you?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: xenu on May 09, 2019, 11:07:45 PM
We saved the easter eggs until Halloween night.  >:D

Had to be damn careful handling them after they'd sat in a barn through an Indiana summer.  ::)

I don't remember my mom ever refrigerating the eggs after we dyed them for easter.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 10, 2019, 02:13:11 AM
Even if the eggs are boiled for only one minute, and the eggs reach a temperature of only 70 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the water will take many minutes to cool down to 70 degrees Celsius, during which time the eggs will also be at 70 degrees Celsius (and perhaps higher).  This is better than HTST (high temperature/short time) pasteurisation, which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, and which has a shelf life of one week (two weeks from processing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing

If there’s any doubt about contamination from the kitchen after hard boiling, then it’s not necessary to discard the eggs.  Just re-hard boil them.

That would be fine, except the eggs would be ruined, and could likely have well established salmonella colonies which would be harder to kill than raw eggs.


You don't spend much time in the kitchen, do you?

Well, you wouldn’t have Salmonella from the poultry farm in the hard boiled eggs, because hard boiling in the way described is better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation.  You’d only have Salmonella in the hard boiled eggs if there was a lot of Salmonella in your kitchen, which would be contaminating everything you eat.  Including the apples in the fruit bowl on the kitchen bench.

And re-hard boiling eggs doesn’t ruin the eggs.  I’ve just come from Norden in East Friesland where I spent 4 days.  My hotel room didn’t have a fridge.  I hard boiled six eggs at the start of my stay, and i had the last two last night in Amsterdam 3 days later.  I re-hard boiled them before eating (i like my hard boiled eggs to be warm to hot) and they were fine.  Just as good as the freshly hard boiled eggs from 3 days earlier.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 10, 2019, 05:46:52 AM
We saved the easter eggs until Halloween night.  >:D

Had to be damn careful handling them after they'd sat in a barn through an Indiana summer.  ::)

I don't remember my mom ever refrigerating the eggs after we dyed them for easter.
True, but she didn't know we'd stashed the eggs for a summer-long ferment.  >:D
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 10, 2019, 01:19:03 PM
Even if the eggs are boiled for only one minute, and the eggs reach a temperature of only 70 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the water will take many minutes to cool down to 70 degrees Celsius, during which time the eggs will also be at 70 degrees Celsius (and perhaps higher).  This is better than HTST (high temperature/short time) pasteurisation, which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, and which has a shelf life of one week (two weeks from processing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing

If there’s any doubt about contamination from the kitchen after hard boiling, then it’s not necessary to discard the eggs.  Just re-hard boil them.

That would be fine, except the eggs would be ruined, and could likely have well established salmonella colonies which would be harder to kill than raw eggs.


You don't spend much time in the kitchen, do you?

Well, you wouldn’t have Salmonella from the poultry farm in the hard boiled eggs, because hard boiling in the way described is better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation.  You’d only have Salmonella in the hard boiled eggs if there was a lot of Salmonella in your kitchen, which would be contaminating everything you eat.  Including the apples in the fruit bowl on the kitchen bench.

And re-hard boiling eggs doesn’t ruin the eggs.  I’ve just come from Norden in East Friesland where I spent 4 days.  My hotel room didn’t have a fridge.  I hard boiled six eggs at the start of my stay, and i had the last two last night in Amsterdam 3 days later.  I re-hard boiled them before eating (i like my hard boiled eggs to be warm to hot) and they were fine.  Just as good as the freshly hard boiled eggs from 3 days earlier.

You should assume Salmonella and other dangerous bacteria are in your kitchen and contaminating everything you eat. The key is to not give them a chance to establish large colonies and thus avoid hitting your system with more than your natural defenses can handle. Which is why you shouldn't eat cooked food that's been left out more than two hours.

Is your anecdote supposed to prove something?

That's exactly like saying "I didn't vaccinate my kids and they're fine"

As for re-hardboiling, if you overcook them in the first place, maybe boiling doesn't make them that much worse. I should have said reboiling properly hardboiled eggs ruins them.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 10, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
We saved the easter eggs until Halloween night.  >:D

Had to be damn careful handling them after they'd sat in a barn through an Indiana summer.  ::)

I don't remember my mom ever refrigerating the eggs after we dyed them for easter.
True, but she didn't know we'd stashed the eggs for a summer-long ferment.  >:D
We were rained out one Easter so we had an egg hunt inside.  We found the last egg by smell a few weeks later. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 10, 2019, 01:36:14 PM
We hid ours behind the manure pile in the barn. Perfect cover.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Swagomatic on May 10, 2019, 02:05:56 PM
We hid ours behind the manure pile in the barn. Perfect cover.

We never intentionally hid them, but we would find an occasional nuclear stink bomb - usually in the Oleander hedge that ringed our backyard.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 10, 2019, 10:13:04 PM
Even if the eggs are boiled for only one minute, and the eggs reach a temperature of only 70 degrees Celsius, the temperature of the water will take many minutes to cool down to 70 degrees Celsius, during which time the eggs will also be at 70 degrees Celsius (and perhaps higher).  This is better than HTST (high temperature/short time) pasteurisation, which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, and which has a shelf life of one week (two weeks from processing).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_processing

If there’s any doubt about contamination from the kitchen after hard boiling, then it’s not necessary to discard the eggs.  Just re-hard boil them.

That would be fine, except the eggs would be ruined, and could likely have well established salmonella colonies which would be harder to kill than raw eggs.


You don't spend much time in the kitchen, do you?

Well, you wouldn’t have Salmonella from the poultry farm in the hard boiled eggs, because hard boiling in the way described is better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation.  You’d only have Salmonella in the hard boiled eggs if there was a lot of Salmonella in your kitchen, which would be contaminating everything you eat.  Including the apples in the fruit bowl on the kitchen bench.

And re-hard boiling eggs doesn’t ruin the eggs.  I’ve just come from Norden in East Friesland where I spent 4 days.  My hotel room didn’t have a fridge.  I hard boiled six eggs at the start of my stay, and i had the last two last night in Amsterdam 3 days later.  I re-hard boiled them before eating (i like my hard boiled eggs to be warm to hot) and they were fine.  Just as good as the freshly hard boiled eggs from 3 days earlier.

You should assume Salmonella and other dangerous bacteria are in your kitchen and contaminating everything you eat. The key is to not give them a chance to establish large colonies and thus avoid hitting your system with more than your natural defenses can handle. Which is why you shouldn't eat cooked food that's been left out more than two hours.

Is your anecdote supposed to prove something?

That's exactly like saying "I didn't vaccinate my kids and they're fine"

As for re-hardboiling, if you overcook them in the first place, maybe boiling doesn't make them that much worse. I should have said reboiling properly hardboiled eggs ruins them.

The scenario that was being considered was that the eggs were hard boiled one evening and left in the pot of water till the next morning.  Should they be discarded?

My argument is that they’re sterile since they’ve been exposed to something better than high temperature/short time pasteurization, which gives food a one week shelf life (two weeks from processing).  Theoretically, it’s possible for Salmonella in your kitchen, if you’ve got a lot of Salmonella in your kitchen, to contaminate the water containing the eggs in the pot, and then penetrate the shell, and then grow on the surface of the hard boiled egg, and eventually penetrate the now solid contents of the egg, in the few hours overnight, but it’s not likely.

But if you’re worried about that (paranoid would be a better word), then re-hard boiling the eggs would obviate that extremely remote possibility.  And re-hard boiling hard boiled eggs doesn’t affect the taste of the eggs, which was the point of my anecdote.  I re-hard boil hard boiled eggs even when I’m at home and the hard boiled eggs have been properly stored in the fridge.  I like my hard boiled eggs to be hot.

The risk with leaving cooked food out of the fridge for hours at room temperature is that the food was only partially cooked, and there were residual surviving pathogenic bacteria left in the food.  Which then multiplied overnight.  I wouldn’t leave lightly scrambled eggs out.  Or soft boiled eggs.  But hard boiled eggs in their shells are as safe as any food can be.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 11, 2019, 05:06:53 AM


The risk with leaving cooked food out of the fridge for hours at room temperature is that the food was only partially cooked, and there were residual surviving pathogenic bacteria left in the food.  Which then multiplied overnight. 

What about leaving cabbage on the bench for a fortnight to make sauerkraut or milk for a week to make kefir?  I do both to generate bacteria which preserve the product and makes very tasty and healthy food.  Not a new or fringe idea.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Harry Black on May 11, 2019, 03:05:44 PM
I find it amazing that the conversation here has breezed right past the professional expertise that someone took the time to share, in favour of hypothesising about various conditions and basic science nuggets.

I do feel that we throw out far too much food in general though, some experience in assessing risk realistically would greatly benefit most peoples grocery budgets and the overall supply and price of food I think.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 11, 2019, 07:35:07 PM
I think most of us agreed with the expert opinion




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 11, 2019, 10:56:28 PM
I think most of us agreed with the expert opinion




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What is the expert opinion?  The claim that just because hard boiling eggs in a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization won’t sterilize eggs because it won’t kill heat resistent bacterial spores, but will kill pathogenic bacteria such as Salmonella species, makes it ‘unsafe’ to consume the hard boiled eggs the following day, despite HTST pasteurized foods having a shelf life of at least 7 days?

Eggs are ‘designed’ to be sterile, unlike milk, which is very adequately treated with HTST pasteurization.  They are intended to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks until the chicks hatch.  Whenever they’re contaminated with bacteria it’s because of a lapse in best practice by the poultry farmer, which is rare, but results in an increased risk in consuming eggs, in particular lightly cooked eggs.  Thoroughly cooked eggs, such as hard boiled eggs, are as safe as any food can be.  I’d be more worried about eating scrambled eggs immediately on cooking when there’s a ‘scare’ on, than hard boiled eggs.  And most times, I’d not be worried about consuming eggs.

The main risk in food borne infections are lightly cooked or uncooked food items.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 11, 2019, 11:42:05 PM
I think most of us agreed with the expert opinion




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What is the expert opinion?  The claim that just because hard boiling eggs in a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization won’t sterilize eggs because it won’t kill heat resistent bacterial spores, but will kill pathogenic bacteria such as Salmonella species, makes it ‘unsafe’ to consume the hard boiled eggs the following day, despite HTST pasteurized foods having a shelf life of at least 7 days?

No. No one made any claim anything like that. The expert advice was to discard any cooked food after it has been at room temperature for two hours. 

Quote
Eggs are ‘designed’ to be sterile, unlike milk, which is very adequately treated with HTST pasteurization.  They are intended to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks until the chicks hatch. 


As has been pointed out several times here, boiling eggs or vigorously washing them makes the shells more permeable.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 12, 2019, 02:14:37 AM
I think most of us agreed with the expert opinion




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What is the expert opinion?  The claim that just because hard boiling eggs in a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization won’t sterilize eggs because it won’t kill heat resistent bacterial spores, but will kill pathogenic bacteria such as Salmonella species, makes it ‘unsafe’ to consume the hard boiled eggs the following day, despite HTST pasteurized foods having a shelf life of at least 7 days?

No. No one made any claim anything like that. The expert advice was to discard any cooked food after it has been at room temperature for two hours. 

Quote
Eggs are ‘designed’ to be sterile, unlike milk, which is very adequately treated with HTST pasteurization.  They are intended to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks until the chicks hatch. 


As has been pointed out several times here, boiling eggs or vigorously washing them makes the shells more permeable.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The ‘expert’ advice is for the lowest common denomination idiot who can’t tell the difference between a thoroughly hard boiled egg in its shell in sterile water and lightly scrambled eggs exposed to the outside air on a plate.

If there’s residual bacteria left in the food after lightly cooking the food, then leaving it at room temperature is a risk.  But there aren’t any pathogenic bacteria in the hard boiled egg.  And it’s not likely that kitchen bacteria are going to be able to get into the pot water, through the shell, and penetrate the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

But if you’re paranoid about this minuscule to non-existent risk, it’s not necessary to discard the egg.  You can just re-hard boil it, which as I’ve noted doesn’t affect the taste of the egg.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: superdave on May 12, 2019, 08:54:25 AM
I totally agree that the risk was very tiny but the reward was also pretty tiny too.  These were not free range organic emu eggs imported from Australia.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 12, 2019, 09:17:27 AM
I totally agree that the risk was very tiny but the reward was also pretty tiny too.  These were not free range organic emu eggs imported from Australia.
I think Trader Joe's have those.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 12, 2019, 10:51:17 AM
I totally agree that the risk was very tiny but the reward was also pretty tiny too.  These were not free range organic emu eggs imported from Australia.

The reward is not wasting food.  It’s been estimated that 1/3 of all food produced, with all its costs in greenhouse gas emissions, is discarded and wasted.

When I re-hard boil already hard boiled eggs (because I prefer my hard boiled eggs to be hot), I use the hot water to make coffee or drinking chocolate, so it’s not wasted.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 12, 2019, 12:11:16 PM

The ‘expert’ advice is for the lowest common denomination idiot who can’t tell the difference between a thoroughly hard boiled egg in its shell in sterile water and lightly scrambled eggs exposed to the outside air on a plate.

If there’s residual bacteria left in the food after lightly cooking the food, then leaving it at room temperature is a risk.  But there aren’t any pathogenic bacteria in the hard boiled egg.  And it’s not likely that kitchen bacteria are going to be able to get into the pot water, through the shell, and penetrate the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

But if you’re paranoid about this minuscule to non-existent risk, it’s not necessary to discard the egg.  You can just re-hard boil it, which as I’ve noted doesn’t affect the taste of the egg.
Not really. The recommendations are based on the standard cooking procedures. So poultry and pork are assumed fully cooked and beef varies. Eggs are recommended to be thoroughly cooked.

Certainly an under cooked food will spoil faster then a fully cooked food. But the recommendation is not based on the potential bacteria in the food, except for some food items. It is based on contamination from the environment. Bacteria and molds requiere Water, temperature and nutrients to thrive, which can be found on most food items left on the counter. The more bacteria something has the higher the risk of becoming ill.

The thing is that the recommendation is for a large population and for each individual to follow the recommendation so that the population statistically is healthy. You can eat your day old food if you wish, as long as it doesn't have obvious signs of spoilage and your risk of becoming ill is very little, but it is still there.

But clearly, I cannot recommend people to eat day old food that has been left outside regardless of what treatment they had prior and whether or not they have been submerged in water.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 12, 2019, 12:28:00 PM

The ‘expert’ advice is for the lowest common denomination idiot who can’t tell the difference between a thoroughly hard boiled egg in its shell in sterile water and lightly scrambled eggs exposed to the outside air on a plate.

If there’s residual bacteria left in the food after lightly cooking the food, then leaving it at room temperature is a risk.  But there aren’t any pathogenic bacteria in the hard boiled egg.  And it’s not likely that kitchen bacteria are going to be able to get into the pot water, through the shell, and penetrate the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

But if you’re paranoid about this minuscule to non-existent risk, it’s not necessary to discard the egg.  You can just re-hard boil it, which as I’ve noted doesn’t affect the taste of the egg.
Not really. The recommendations are based on the standard cooking procedures. So poultry and pork are assumed fully cooked and beef varies. Eggs are recommended to be thoroughly cooked.

Certainly an under cooked food will spoil faster then a fully cooked food. But the recommendation is not based on the potential bacteria in the food, except for some food items. It is based on contamination from the environment. Bacteria and molds requiere Water, temperature and nutrients to thrive, which can be found on most food items left on the counter. The more bacteria something has the higher the risk of becoming ill.

The thing is that the recommendation is for a large population and for each individual to follow the recommendation so that the population statistically is healthy. You can eat your day old food if you wish, as long as it doesn't have obvious signs of spoilage and your risk of becoming ill is very little, but it is still there.

But clearly, I cannot recommend people to eat day old food that has been left outside regardless of what treatment they had prior and whether or not they have been submerged in water.
Another good post.

I think I’d eat food from Guillermo’s kitchen but not Bachfiend’s




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 12, 2019, 05:57:13 PM

The ‘expert’ advice is for the lowest common denomination idiot who can’t tell the difference between a thoroughly hard boiled egg in its shell in sterile water and lightly scrambled eggs exposed to the outside air on a plate.

If there’s residual bacteria left in the food after lightly cooking the food, then leaving it at room temperature is a risk.  But there aren’t any pathogenic bacteria in the hard boiled egg.  And it’s not likely that kitchen bacteria are going to be able to get into the pot water, through the shell, and penetrate the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

But if you’re paranoid about this minuscule to non-existent risk, it’s not necessary to discard the egg.  You can just re-hard boil it, which as I’ve noted doesn’t affect the taste of the egg.
Not really. The recommendations are based on the standard cooking procedures. So poultry and pork are assumed fully cooked and beef varies. Eggs are recommended to be thoroughly cooked.

Certainly an under cooked food will spoil faster then a fully cooked food. But the recommendation is not based on the potential bacteria in the food, except for some food items. It is based on contamination from the environment. Bacteria and molds requiere Water, temperature and nutrients to thrive, which can be found on most food items left on the counter. The more bacteria something has the higher the risk of becoming ill.

The thing is that the recommendation is for a large population and for each individual to follow the recommendation so that the population statistically is healthy. You can eat your day old food if you wish, as long as it doesn't have obvious signs of spoilage and your risk of becoming ill is very little, but it is still there.

But clearly, I cannot recommend people to eat day old food that has been left outside regardless of what treatment they had prior and whether or not they have been submerged in water.

Obviously unshelled hard boiled eggs immersed in boiled water in a pot overnight is a different situation to lightly cooked scrambled eggs on a plate exposed to the air.  For contamination from outside to get into the hard boiled egg, the bacteria first have to get into the water.  Then penetrate the shell.  And then the membranes inside the shell.  And then the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

And that’s assuming that the bacteria are pathogenic.  Most bacteria are harmless.

A person not discarding the hard boiled egg the next day would be shelling and rinsing the egg before consumption, which would be removing the very minimal number of bacteria  possibly breaching the egg.

The risk is minimal to non-existent.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 13, 2019, 04:43:41 AM

The risk is minimal to non-existent.

I can't improve on that.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 13, 2019, 06:06:28 AM

The risk is minimal to non-existent.

I can't improve on that.

It seems to me to be extremely implausible, if not stupid, to claim that leaving an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot containing boiled water for two hours is equally hazardous as leaving scrambled eggs exposed to the air on a plate at room temperature for 2 hours.

The ‘advice’ is just back-covering and pandering to the lowest common denominator of stupidly, similar to warnings that it’s not recommended using electric hair driers while lying in a bathtub.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 13, 2019, 09:12:26 AM
Last year there was an E Coli outbreak linked to romaine lettuce that had about 35 reported cases. Out of thousands and thousands of consumers. What is the risk. Would you still buy the lettuce knowing said minute risk? You as an individual will probably not get sick.

The risk is small but it is not non-existant.

The question is: Is it Safe? No, somebody at some point will get sick if they eat the day old egg.

Can you eat it? You can eat it and you probably will not get sick. You can spend all your life eating without food safety protocols, and you are probably not going to get sick, most people really don't follow strict guideline..  Once I got into the business, I realized all the really unsafe things I did all the time. Had to do some changes in the kitchen.

So, you wont get sick. But eating day old food off the counter, is not a good idea. Have you ever had a light tummy ache or a passing diarrhea. Yeah, that was probably food poisoning.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 13, 2019, 09:19:32 AM


The ‘advice’ is just back-covering and pandering to the lowest common denominator of stupidly, similar to warnings that it’s not recommended using electric hair driers while lying in a bathtub.
It is not. Most cooked food will grow bacteria very quickly. And you cannot notice it when it reaches unsafe levels. These are not guesses. They are based on research. The 'Advice' Is based on how many people will be harmed if nobody follows a recommendation.

I don't understand how you are not part of the common denominator if you eat a day old unshelled unrefrigerated egg.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 13, 2019, 12:21:20 PM


The ‘advice’ is just back-covering and pandering to the lowest common denominator of stupidly, similar to warniings that it’s not recommended using electric hair driers while lying in a bathtub.
It is not. Most cooked food will grow bacteria very quickly. And you cannot notice it when it reaches unsafe levels. These are not guesses. They are based on research. The 'Advice' Is based on how many people will be harmed if nobody follows a recommendation.

I don't understand how you are not part of the common denominator if you eat a day old unshelled unrefrigerated egg.

Care to cite the research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs kept in a pot of boiled water overnight (which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation, which gives a shelf life of at least one week) are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria?  Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?

Raw foods, such as lettuce, are obviously a risk.  Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk.  You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 12:52:55 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 13, 2019, 01:52:07 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)

LOL.

I wouldn't eat at Bachfiend's restaurant, but I would try one of the sausages from your cart. (Not the beyond or vegan, though).
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 01:53:22 PM
... I would try one of the sausages from your cart.


Is that some new euphemism?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 02:37:42 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)

LOL.

I wouldn't eat at Bachfiend's restaurant, but I would try one of the sausages from your cart. (Not the beyond or vegan, though).

Thanks, I think Im going to come out with a new one and call it "the CarbShark"  I have always liked your name. No bun, no sauce containing sugar,  Ill have to come up with something, what do you like?

The Beyond is getting more popular, especially with bacon, LOL Im not kidding but also not surprised, my bacon is candied with whiskey maple glaze. I also have one customer that orders it with pulled pork, My dogs are beef and I think thats the one protein she wont eat.

I considered a "Bachfiend Dog" but I like my customers too much. LOL

Sorry Bachfiend, I cant help it, please take all this in jest. Food safety has become a big issue lately with my new pop up.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 13, 2019, 05:03:13 PM

Care to cite the research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs kept in a pot of boiled water overnight (which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation, which gives a shelf life of at least one week) are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria?  Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?

Raw foods, such as lettuce, are obviously a risk.  Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk.  You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50
I could probably find relevant research that can point out the risk of unshelled eggs kept at room temperature. But I will only go through the trouble of finding it, and asking my colleges if you sincerely want them.

There are somethings that I want to point out. 
1) "which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization" this is not necessarily true. But you could consider it equal.

2) "which gives a shelf life of at least one week" Only on unopened products. Once you open them and leve it airborne, it would be contaminated and will begin the process of bacterial growth, depending on what it is. Same thing happens to UHT processed milk left out in the open. That's why all products say "Refrigerate after opening".

3) "are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria" this is not the claim. It is prone to external contamination of any bacteria, including Pathogenic bacteria. It would be uncommon to get a specific bacteria which would depend on what's in the environment.  Once there is contamination, bacterial growth that are dependent on nutrients, water and temperature will grow exponentially.

4) "Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?" With the right nutrients and temperature, bacterial populations grow exponentially. Starting at a reasonable population of 10^1 /g, in 10 hours you can reach population of 10^9 or 10^10. And it usually stops there because that's the maximum population density. So yes it definitely can. 

5) "Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk. " This is your speculation, cause I can't find anywhere that considers this an absent risk or even minimal. Certainly less risky then raw food.

6) "You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50" I don't see how anything I said resembles that absurd analogy. I'd be more accurate in stating that if there are 10,000 muffins and 1 has deadly dose of cyanide, I cannot recommend people to eat even 1. It is unsafe.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: jt512 on May 13, 2019, 05:54:11 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)

LOL.

I wouldn't eat at Bachfiend's restaurant, but I would try one of the sausages from your cart. (Not the beyond or vegan, though).

Thanks, I think Im going to come out with a new one and call it "the CarbShark"  I have always liked your name. No bun, no sauce containing sugar,  Ill have to come up with something, what do you like?


I have always like his name, too.  No bun intended.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: brilligtove on May 13, 2019, 06:03:46 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)

LOL.

I wouldn't eat at Bachfiend's restaurant, but I would try one of the sausages from your cart. (Not the beyond or vegan, though).

Thanks, I think Im going to come out with a new one and call it "the CarbShark"  I have always liked your name. No bun, no sauce containing sugar,  Ill have to come up with something, what do you like?


I have always like his name, too.  No bun intended.

Smoked shark in a lettuce wrap with appropriate sauces or chutneys?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 13, 2019, 08:03:02 PM
yea, bachfiend just convinced me, I'll just throw the health codes out the window, they don't mean anything at all, its a real pain in the ass dealing with those rules and evidently there is no proof they are correct.  Im sure my customers wont get sick eating those eggs. why just 12 hrs, I bet they will make it to 48 as long as I keep them in some pre sterilized water.  ::)

LOL.

I wouldn't eat at Bachfiend's restaurant, but I would try one of the sausages from your cart. (Not the beyond or vegan, though).

Thanks, I think Im going to come out with a new one and call it "the CarbShark"  I have always liked your name. No bun, no sauce containing sugar,  Ill have to come up with something, what do you like?

The Beyond is getting more popular, especially with bacon, LOL Im not kidding but also not surprised, my bacon is candied with whiskey maple glaze. I also have one customer that orders it with pulled pork, My dogs are beef and I think thats the one protein she wont eat.

I considered a "Bachfiend Dog" but I like my customers too much. LOL

Sorry Bachfiend, I cant help it, please take all this in jest. Food safety has become a big issue lately with my new pop up.

My favorite is a bit of a pain to make. Take a typical banger, while fresh out of the refrigerator (before it gets to warm and soft) remove the skin and wrap tightly with thin-cut bacon. Bake at 350f until browned, then finish in a skillet or on a grill to crisp the bacon. (I do them in two steps on our grill, indirect heat for about 15 minutes, then high direct heat until the bacon is don).  Serve with mustard, mayo and a pad of butter. 

(If you do use the name, you gotta post a pic of the menu!)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 14, 2019, 02:44:49 AM
I didnt want to hijack the egg thread with more hot dog stuff but i'm wondering if this could be a thread about food safety in general, I have other questions about food safety that I would like to discuss.

are they safe to eat?

It was your thread superdave, are you interested in further food safety discussion here or should I start a new thread?



Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 14, 2019, 02:46:43 AM

Care to cite the research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs kept in a pot of boiled water overnight (which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation, which gives a shelf life of at least one week) are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria?  Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?

Raw foods, such as lettuce, are obviously a risk.  Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk.  You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50
I could probably find relevant research that can point out the risk of unshelled eggs kept at room temperature. But I will only go through the trouble of finding it, and asking my colleges if you sincerely want them.

There are somethings that I want to point out. 
1) "which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization" this is not necessarily true. But you could consider it equal.

2) "which gives a shelf life of at least one week" Only on unopened products. Once you open them and leve it airborne, it would be contaminated and will begin the process of bacterial growth, depending on what it is. Same thing happens to UHT processed milk left out in the open. That's why all products say "Refrigerate after opening".

3) "are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria" this is not the claim. It is prone to external contamination of any bacteria, including Pathogenic bacteria. It would be uncommon to get a specific bacteria which would depend on what's in the environment.  Once there is contamination, bacterial growth that are dependent on nutrients, water and temperature will grow exponentially.

4) "Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?" With the right nutrients and temperature, bacterial populations grow exponentially. Starting at a reasonable population of 10^1 /g, in 10 hours you can reach population of 10^9 or 10^10. And it usually stops there because that's the maximum population density. So yes it definitely can. 

5) "Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk. " This is your speculation, cause I can't find anywhere that considers this an absent risk or even minimal. Certainly less risky then raw food.

6) "You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50" I don't see how anything I said resembles that absurd analogy. I'd be more accurate in stating that if there are 10,000 muffins and 1 has deadly dose of cyanide, I cannot recommend people to eat even 1. It is unsafe.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs aren’t ‘opened.’  They still have the shell intact.

And the hard boiled eggs don’t start with 10 bacteria per gram, which then undergoes exponential multiplication. They start with zero bacteria per gram, or at least such a negligible number that they’d be undetectable, because they’ve undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation (which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, compared to at least 70 degrees Celsius for many minutes).

For the bacteria to get into the egg in the scenario described, they first have to get into the boiled sterile water in the pot, then penetrate the shell, and then start multiplying on the solid surface of the boiled egg.  Or in my case (yesterday I hard boiled 6 eggs, two of which I ate, and the other 4 I placed in a container for me to take from Amsterdam to Hamburg - a duration of around 8 hours) through the intact dry shell of the eggs (which is similar to the situation with sterile surgical instruments, which are sealed in dry paper after being autoclaved - bacteria need moisture to penetrate permeable material).

The reference to LD50s is in concerning the number of bacteria.  Relatively uncooked scrambled eggs on an uncovered plate at room temperature will contain significantly more bacteria than unshelled hard boiled eggs after 2 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (and in most cases the unshelled hard boiled eggs won’t contain any bacteria).  Insisting on discarding scrambled eggs (with possibly significant numbers of bacteria) and unshelled hard boiled eggs (which will contain none) after being at room temperature for two hours is referring to the number of bacteria.  You need a certain number of bacteria to cause, because the bowel’s commensal bacteria block infection with small numbers of bacteria).

It should be easy for you to find some research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs contain bacteria in the scenario described.  Not that it causes clinical infection.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 14, 2019, 05:22:44 AM
Now I realise that my evil mother was trying to kill me with those days old hard boiled eggs.

She never approved of rockclimging, skydiving, those LSD excursions or most of those hippie girlfriends.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 14, 2019, 08:42:36 AM

Care to cite the research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs kept in a pot of boiled water overnight (which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation, which gives a shelf life of at least one week) are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria?  Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?

Raw foods, such as lettuce, are obviously a risk.  Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk.  You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50
I could probably find relevant research that can point out the risk of unshelled eggs kept at room temperature. But I will only go through the trouble of finding it, and asking my colleges if you sincerely want them.

There are somethings that I want to point out. 
1) "which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization" this is not necessarily true. But you could consider it equal.

2) "which gives a shelf life of at least one week" Only on unopened products. Once you open them and leve it airborne, it would be contaminated and will begin the process of bacterial growth, depending on what it is. Same thing happens to UHT processed milk left out in the open. That's why all products say "Refrigerate after opening".

3) "are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria" this is not the claim. It is prone to external contamination of any bacteria, including Pathogenic bacteria. It would be uncommon to get a specific bacteria which would depend on what's in the environment.  Once there is contamination, bacterial growth that are dependent on nutrients, water and temperature will grow exponentially.

4) "Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?" With the right nutrients and temperature, bacterial populations grow exponentially. Starting at a reasonable population of 10^1 /g, in 10 hours you can reach population of 10^9 or 10^10. And it usually stops there because that's the maximum population density. So yes it definitely can. 

5) "Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk. " This is your speculation, cause I can't find anywhere that considers this an absent risk or even minimal. Certainly less risky then raw food.

6) "You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50" I don't see how anything I said resembles that absurd analogy. I'd be more accurate in stating that if there are 10,000 muffins and 1 has deadly dose of cyanide, I cannot recommend people to eat even 1. It is unsafe.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs aren’t ‘opened.’  They still have the shell intact.

And the hard boiled eggs don’t start with 10 bacteria per gram, which then undergoes exponential multiplication. They start with zero bacteria per gram, or at least such a negligible number that they’d be undetectable, because they’ve undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation (which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, compared to at least 70 degrees Celsius for many minutes).

For the bacteria to get into the egg in the scenario described, they first have to get into the boiled sterile water in the pot, then penetrate the shell, and then start multiplying on the solid surface of the boiled egg.  Or in my case (yesterday I hard boiled 6 eggs, two of which I ate, and the other 4 I placed in a container for me to take from Amsterdam to Hamburg - a duration of around 8 hours) through the intact dry shell of the eggs (which is similar to the situation with sterile surgical instruments, which are sealed in dry paper after being autoclaved - bacteria need moisture to penetrate permeable material).

The reference to LD50s is in concerning the number of bacteria.  Relatively uncooked scrambled eggs on an uncovered plate at room temperature will contain significantly more bacteria than unshelled hard boiled eggs after 2 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (and in most cases the unshelled hard boiled eggs won’t contain any bacteria).  Insisting on discarding scrambled eggs (with possibly significant numbers of bacteria) and unshelled hard boiled eggs (which will contain none) after being at room temperature for two hours is referring to the number of bacteria.  You need a certain number of bacteria to cause, because the bowel’s commensal bacteria block infection with small numbers of bacteria).

It should be easy for you to find some research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs contain bacteria in the scenario described.  Not that it causes clinical infection.
You are not guaranteed to kill all of the bacteria by boiling, and there are some bacteria that will survive (but those are unlikely in this scenario).

Egg shells are porous. They have a protective layer called the cuticle that gets disolved when boiled. Boiling also produce cracks in eggs shells.

The thing is that you are correct in saying that compared to uncooked food, it will be safer. And Lonely Moa can eat thousands of day old eggs and he wont get sick, maybe except for that one time he had a belly ache 2 days after eating one and he can't place what caused his belly ache.

But even if it is safer than that, there is still a risk. And if the general public do not follow the recommendations a large portion will become ill.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 14, 2019, 01:06:30 PM

Care to cite the research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs kept in a pot of boiled water overnight (which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation, which gives a shelf life of at least one week) are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria?  Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?

Raw foods, such as lettuce, are obviously a risk.  Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk.  You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50
I could probably find relevant research that can point out the risk of unshelled eggs kept at room temperature. But I will only go through the trouble of finding it, and asking my colleges if you sincerely want them.

There are somethings that I want to point out. 
1) "which have undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurization" this is not necessarily true. But you could consider it equal.

2) "which gives a shelf life of at least one week" Only on unopened products. Once you open them and leve it airborne, it would be contaminated and will begin the process of bacterial growth, depending on what it is. Same thing happens to UHT processed milk left out in the open. That's why all products say "Refrigerate after opening".

3) "are prone to external contamination by pathogenic enteric bacteria" this is not the claim. It is prone to external contamination of any bacteria, including Pathogenic bacteria. It would be uncommon to get a specific bacteria which would depend on what's in the environment.  Once there is contamination, bacterial growth that are dependent on nutrients, water and temperature will grow exponentially.

4) "Which can then multiply to significant levels overnight?" With the right nutrients and temperature, bacterial populations grow exponentially. Starting at a reasonable population of 10^1 /g, in 10 hours you can reach population of 10^9 or 10^10. And it usually stops there because that's the maximum population density. So yes it definitely can. 

5) "Hard boiled eggs are of minimal to absent risk. " This is your speculation, cause I can't find anywhere that considers this an absent risk or even minimal. Certainly less risky then raw food.

6) "You’re like the person who correctly states that cyanide is dangerous, but then claims that a dose of 0.1 LD50 is equally as dangerous as a dose of 10 LD50" I don't see how anything I said resembles that absurd analogy. I'd be more accurate in stating that if there are 10,000 muffins and 1 has deadly dose of cyanide, I cannot recommend people to eat even 1. It is unsafe.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs aren’t ‘opened.’  They still have the shell intact.

And the hard boiled eggs don’t start with 10 bacteria per gram, which then undergoes exponential multiplication. They start with zero bacteria per gram, or at least such a negligible number that they’d be undetectable, because they’ve undergone a process better than high temperature/short time pasteurisation (which is 72 degrees Celsius for 15 seconds, compared to at least 70 degrees Celsius for many minutes).

For the bacteria to get into the egg in the scenario described, they first have to get into the boiled sterile water in the pot, then penetrate the shell, and then start multiplying on the solid surface of the boiled egg.  Or in my case (yesterday I hard boiled 6 eggs, two of which I ate, and the other 4 I placed in a container for me to take from Amsterdam to Hamburg - a duration of around 8 hours) through the intact dry shell of the eggs (which is similar to the situation with sterile surgical instruments, which are sealed in dry paper after being autoclaved - bacteria need moisture to penetrate permeable material).

The reference to LD50s is in concerning the number of bacteria.  Relatively uncooked scrambled eggs on an uncovered plate at room temperature will contain significantly more bacteria than unshelled hard boiled eggs after 2 hours, 12 hours or 24 hours (and in most cases the unshelled hard boiled eggs won’t contain any bacteria).  Insisting on discarding scrambled eggs (with possibly significant numbers of bacteria) and unshelled hard boiled eggs (which will contain none) after being at room temperature for two hours is referring to the number of bacteria.  You need a certain number of bacteria to cause, because the bowel’s commensal bacteria block infection with small numbers of bacteria).

It should be easy for you to find some research showing that unshelled hard boiled eggs contain bacteria in the scenario described.  Not that it causes clinical infection.
You are not guaranteed to kill all of the bacteria by boiling, and there are some bacteria that will survive (but those are unlikely in this scenario).

Egg shells are porous. They have a protective layer called the cuticle that gets disolved when boiled. Boiling also produce cracks in eggs shells.

The thing is that you are correct in saying that compared to uncooked food, it will be safer. And Lonely Moa can eat thousands of day old eggs and he wont get sick, maybe except for that one time he had a belly ache 2 days after eating one and he can't place what caused his belly ache.

But even if it is safer than that, there is still a risk. And if the general public do not follow the recommendations a large portion will become ill.

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 14, 2019, 01:22:25 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Nobody in this thread has made that assertion or claim. Even with perfectly adequate poultry farm practice and perfect handling from farm to pot, bacteria in the environment has the potential spread to room temperature hard boiled eggs in almost any kitchen.

If enough bacteria from the environment gets in the water, then it can get through the shell.

The OP didn't mention this but many recipes for HB eggs specify the eggs not being fully covered by water.

Quote
Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.

Egg shells crack, and sometimes the cracks are not visible.  You can put food dye in water, hard boil the eggs and the eggs will have absorbed some die.

Quote
  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

Now you're comparing eggs to scalpels.


Quote

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.

No one is talking about partially cooked or uncooked food in that context. The guidelines that apply, which have been discussed, apply to fully cooked foods. Different guidelines apply to uncooked food items and partially cooked food (which vary depending on the food).
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 14, 2019, 02:39:14 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 14, 2019, 03:14:25 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.

You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 14, 2019, 04:17:57 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

Quote
I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.


Designed by whom?

Quote
You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

No. He's reading the recommendations, not reading into them exceptions that are not there. While it's true that temperature is adequate to kill many bacteria, that's not the question. The question is should it be considered safe to leave hardboiled eggs at room temperature overnight.  (Hint: It's not considered safe)

Since the guidelines don't make an exception for how the eggs are prepared, the guidelines apply.

Quote
There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything.


Proven wrong.


Staphylococcal food poisoning associated with an Easter egg hunt. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6748205)
Quote
Staphylococcal contamination of intact, hard-boiled eggs resulted in the food poisoning of an estimated 300 children out of 850 who had participated in an Easter egg hunt. Enterotoxigenic staphylococci that were isolated from the Easter eggs matched that obtained from an infected cook who prepared the eggs three to five days before the hunt and which he left unrefrigerated. Experimental studies demonstrated that heated eggs can absorb 2 mL of contaminated cool water through intact eggshells. When water was inoculated with pathogenic staphylococci at even low contamination levels, rapid growth and enterotoxin production within cooked eggs could be easily duplicated. This is the first large outbreak of its type; safeguards can and should be employed to prevent future ones.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: jt512 on May 14, 2019, 04:25:29 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

Quote
I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.


Designed by whom?

Quote
You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

No. He's reading the recommendations, not reading into them exceptions that are not there. While it's true that temperature is adequate to kill many bacteria, that's not the question. The question is should it be considered safe to leave hardboiled eggs at room temperature overnight.  (Hint: It's not considered safe)

Since the guidelines don't make an exception for how the eggs are prepared, the guidelines apply.

Quote
There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything.


Proven wrong.


Staphylococcal food poisoning associated with an Easter egg hunt. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6748205)
Quote
Staphylococcal contamination of intact, hard-boiled eggs resulted in the food poisoning of an estimated 300 children out of 850 who had participated in an Easter egg hunt. Enterotoxigenic staphylococci that were isolated from the Easter eggs matched that obtained from an infected cook who prepared the eggs three to five days before the hunt and which he left unrefrigerated. Experimental studies demonstrated that heated eggs can absorb 2 mL of contaminated cool water through intact eggshells. When water was inoculated with pathogenic staphylococci at even low contamination levels, rapid growth and enterotoxin production within cooked eggs could be easily duplicated. This is the first large outbreak of its type; safeguards can and should be employed to prevent future ones.

QED.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 14, 2019, 10:54:03 PM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

Quote
I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.


Designed by whom?

Quote
You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

No. He's reading the recommendations, not reading into them exceptions that are not there. While it's true that temperature is adequate to kill many bacteria, that's not the question. The question is should it be considered safe to leave hardboiled eggs at room temperature overnight.  (Hint: It's not considered safe)

Since the guidelines don't make an exception for how the eggs are prepared, the guidelines apply.

Quote
There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything.


Proven wrong.


Staphylococcal food poisoning associated with an Easter egg hunt. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6748205)
Quote
Staphylococcal contamination of intact, hard-boiled eggs resulted in the food poisoning of an estimated 300 children out of 850 who had participated in an Easter egg hunt. Enterotoxigenic staphylococci that were isolated from the Easter eggs matched that obtained from an infected cook who prepared the eggs three to five days before the hunt and which he left unrefrigerated. Experimental studies demonstrated that heated eggs can absorb 2 mL of contaminated cool water through intact eggshells. When water was inoculated with pathogenic staphylococci at even low contamination levels, rapid growth and enterotoxin production within cooked eggs could be easily duplicated. This is the first large outbreak of its type; safeguards can and should be employed to prevent future ones.

This isn’t what I was asking for.  Hard boiling eggs 3 to 5 days earlier and then leaving them randomly hidden in the environment, prone to contamination with any nature of non-sterile moisture, is obviously a completely different situation to the scenario being considered; hard boiling eggs one evening and then forgetting them and leaving them in the pot containing the boiled sterile water till the next morning.  Are they still safe to eat?  Obviously they are.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 15, 2019, 12:52:40 AM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

Quote
I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.


Designed by whom?

Quote
You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

No. He's reading the recommendations, not reading into them exceptions that are not there. While it's true that temperature is adequate to kill many bacteria, that's not the question. The question is should it be considered safe to leave hardboiled eggs at room temperature overnight.  (Hint: It's not considered safe)

Since the guidelines don't make an exception for how the eggs are prepared, the guidelines apply.

Quote
There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything.


Proven wrong.


Staphylococcal food poisoning associated with an Easter egg hunt. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6748205)
Quote
Staphylococcal contamination of intact, hard-boiled eggs resulted in the food poisoning of an estimated 300 children out of 850 who had participated in an Easter egg hunt. Enterotoxigenic staphylococci that were isolated from the Easter eggs matched that obtained from an infected cook who prepared the eggs three to five days before the hunt and which he left unrefrigerated. Experimental studies demonstrated that heated eggs can absorb 2 mL of contaminated cool water through intact eggshells. When water was inoculated with pathogenic staphylococci at even low contamination levels, rapid growth and enterotoxin production within cooked eggs could be easily duplicated. This is the first large outbreak of its type; safeguards can and should be employed to prevent future ones.

This isn’t what I was asking for.  Hard boiling eggs 3 to 5 days earlier and then leaving them randomly hidden in the environment, prone to contamination with any nature of non-sterile moisture, is obviously a completely different situation to the scenario being considered; hard boiling eggs one evening and then forgetting them and leaving them in the pot containing the boiled sterile water till the next morning.  Are they still safe to eat?  Obviously they are.

wouldn't that also depend on the cleanliness of the kitchen?
Were they cooled in the same pot?
Are there bugs in the kitchen?
What is the air quality like?

the water even if truly boiled and sterile was then cooled at an unsafe speed in an open environment.  Hot food, including food sitting in water must be cooled in an ice bath or in a fridge. It never reached a safe temperature.

Someone brushes up against some Salmonella at Subway and it gets in their hair. Once they get home a hair dislodges and floats in the air until it lands in the water just as it reaches 135 degrees F which allows it to grow quickly as it slowly reduces temperature,   The water is now contaminated as are the eggs. Perhaps a small splash of grease on the ceiling undetectable to the eye falls into the pan, or a chunk of dust from the ceiling fan. I could go on and on.

The water was food safe "sterile" only until it reached a temp of 144F.  lower than that in an open container and its no longer safe after 2 hours.

Letting it cool at room temp is also not safe and that would override the 2 hour rule if I understand the rules correctly.

BTW when I boil eggs I drain the hot water and place them in an ice bath which is the better way to do it for both safety and taste, you want the egg to stop cooking once it reaches your preferred doneness. You also want to eliminate a sulfur smell caused by overcooking.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 15, 2019, 02:34:30 AM

Evidence that hard boiling eggs won’t kill all the bacteria in eggs due to a breach of adequate poultry farm practice?  You keep on asserting it, but you’ve never provided support for your claim.

Unshelled hard boiled eggs are still not opened, even if the shell is porous.  A dry shell won’t allow bacteria to enter in the same way as the dry paper wrapping around surgical instruments after autoclaving won’t allow bacteria to enter, despite paper being permeable too.

And in the scenario under discussion, the hard boiled eggs are in boiled sterile water, so it’s perfectly safe to eat the boiled eggs the next morning.

It’s not necessary to treat hard boiled eggs in the same way as partially cooked and uncooked food items as you claim.
You seem to be requesting evidence from me but has not once provided evidence from your part. Considering that every mayor food safety organization advocates a maximum of two hour shelf life for hard boiled eggs at room temperature, should mean something. But you seem to not be providing any evidence that contradicts these recommendations by the FDA and WHO among others.

PS: Where did I mention inadequate poultry farm practices?

Quote
I initially brought up the reason why eggs are sometimes contaminated with Salmonella.  Normally eggs are sterile because they’re ‘designed’ to be incubated at the bird’s body temperature for weeks before the chick hatches.


Designed by whom?

Quote
You’re misreading the recommendations, which are for cooked egg products in general, not hard boiled eggs in particular, which have been heated to at least 70 degrees Celsius for minutes, adequate to kill all enteric pathogens, except perhaps heat resistent exotoxins, such as from Staph aureus.  And Intoxikation with that usually results from contamination from food handlers.

No. He's reading the recommendations, not reading into them exceptions that are not there. While it's true that temperature is adequate to kill many bacteria, that's not the question. The question is should it be considered safe to leave hardboiled eggs at room temperature overnight.  (Hint: It's not considered safe)

Since the guidelines don't make an exception for how the eggs are prepared, the guidelines apply.

Quote
There’s no evidence that adequately hard boiled eggs contain surviving enteric bacteria.  Prove me wrong.  Show some evidence that when hard boiled eggs have been cultured, they’ve grown anything.


Proven wrong.


Staphylococcal food poisoning associated with an Easter egg hunt. - PubMed - NCBI (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6748205)
Quote
Staphylococcal contamination of intact, hard-boiled eggs resulted in the food poisoning of an estimated 300 children out of 850 who had participated in an Easter egg hunt. Enterotoxigenic staphylococci that were isolated from the Easter eggs matched that obtained from an infected cook who prepared the eggs three to five days before the hunt and which he left unrefrigerated. Experimental studies demonstrated that heated eggs can absorb 2 mL of contaminated cool water through intact eggshells. When water was inoculated with pathogenic staphylococci at even low contamination levels, rapid growth and enterotoxin production within cooked eggs could be easily duplicated. This is the first large outbreak of its type; safeguards can and should be employed to prevent future ones.

This isn’t what I was asking for.  Hard boiling eggs 3 to 5 days earlier and then leaving them randomly hidden in the environment, prone to contamination with any nature of non-sterile moisture, is obviously a completely different situation to the scenario being considered; hard boiling eggs one evening and then forgetting them and leaving them in the pot containing the boiled sterile water till the next morning.  Are they still safe to eat?  Obviously they are.

wouldn't that also depend on the cleanliness of the kitchen?
Were they cooled in the same pot?
Are there bugs in the kitchen?
What is the air quality like?

the water even if truly boiled and sterile was then cooled at an unsafe speed in an open environment.  Hot food, including food sitting in water must be cooled in an ice bath or in a fridge. It never reached a safe temperature.

Someone brushes up against some Salmonella at Subway and it gets in their hair. Once they get home a hair dislodges and floats in the air until it lands in the water just as it reaches 135 degrees F which allows it to grow quickly as it slowly reduces temperature,   The water is now contaminated as are the eggs. Perhaps a small splash of grease on the ceiling undetectable to the eye falls into the pan, or a chunk of dust from the ceiling fan. I could go on and on.

The water was food safe "sterile" only until it reached a temp of 144F.  lower than that in an open container and its no longer safe after 2 hours.

Letting it cool at room temp is also not safe and that would override the 2 hour rule if I understand the rules correctly.

BTW when I boil eggs I drain the hot water and place them in an ice bath which is the better way to do it for both safety and taste, you want the egg to stop cooking once it reaches your preferred doneness. You also want to eliminate a sulfur smell caused by overcooking.

The ‘2 hour rule’ is an excessive rule of thumb, fits all sizes generalization.  It ignores that it’s supposed to cover all situations, which it doesn’t.

I would discard scrambled eggs exposed to the air on a plate for two hours.  They’re probably safe, but I wouldn’t take the risk.  Scrambled eggs are only lightly cooked, and if there were contaminating bacteria from the poultry farm as a result of bad practices then cooking wouldn’t kill them.  And also there’s a lot of moist surface for bacteria falling on it for them to grow.  I wouldn’t discard unshelled hard boiled eggs in sterile boiled water eventually cooling to room temperature overnight (the hard boiling would have killed any bacteria from the poultry farm, and for bacteria from the environment to reach and grow in the yolk and white of the egg, they’d need to fall into the water, penetrate the shell and eventually penetrate the solid of the boiled egg, all of which would take many hours, far longer than 2 hours.  Nor would I discard dry unshelled hard boiled eggs at room temperature for 8 hours.

Safety of food depends on circumstances.  If there was a scare on about contaminated eggs, I wouldn’t be eating egg dishes at McDonalds (but then again, I never eat at fast food outlets).  I’d probably feel safe if I knew that I was going to cook adequately the eggs at home.  Yesterday, I travelled from Amsterdam to Hamburg, taking 8 hours, with two dry unshelled hard boiled eggs, which I de-shelled.  One I ate last night, and one I forgot about, so it was exposed to room air for 8 hours.  I thought about washing it, but eventually I just discarded it.  I think it was probably still safe, but decided I didn’t need to keep the egg.

The ‘2 hour rule’ is excessive, and just flies in the face of common sense.  I would expect restaurants to follow it strictly though.  If they didn’t, I’d be wondering what other more important rules they’re breaking.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Morvis13 on May 15, 2019, 08:19:46 AM
This discussion has already lasted longer than the egg.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Calinthalus on May 15, 2019, 08:42:30 AM
This discussion has already lasted longer than the egg.
But which came first?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Morvis13 on May 15, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
This discussion has already lasted longer than the egg.
But which came first?
Clearly the egg did as a single celled organism.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 15, 2019, 09:08:11 AM

The ‘2 hour rule’ is an excessive rule of thumb, fits all sizes generalization.


This is correct. It is easier for a government agency to assign one rule to a group of meals then to study each meals individually. And easier for the general public to remember one rule. And I have been saying that this rule is in place for a larger population to keep said larger population safe, and it expects that said larger population follow the rule even if it is excessive. 

But you are arguing an extreme. Talking about a food item left out for more than 12 hours. That is way more time for any perishable food. Especially considering that bacteria can reach unsafe levels in 5 hours even starting with a minimum count. The most extreme situations I've seen as a recommendation specifically for unshelled hard boiled egg is about 8 hours. And this is from colleges (experts from universities that study poultry food safety). And it doesn't matter if it was sterile before.
You are arguing that it is sterile after more than 12 hours and can't possible be unsafe. But this is an extreme position that you cannot say given what we (science) know about bacterial growth and food poisoning.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Noisy Rhysling on May 15, 2019, 09:10:46 AM
This discussion has already lasted longer than the egg.
And created a chicken-egg loop that we may not be able to get out of. Our only chance is to find a cat that walks through walls.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 15, 2019, 09:12:49 AM
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/fsis-content/internet/main/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/egg-products-preparation/shell-eggs-from-farm-to-table/ct_index#21

Quote
Why do hard-cooked eggs spoil faster than fresh eggs?
When shell eggs are hard cooked, the protective coating is washed away, leaving bare the pores in the shell for bacteria to enter and contaminate it. Hard-cooked eggs should be refrigerated within 2 hours of cooking and used within a week.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 15, 2019, 10:58:31 AM
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/fsis-content/internet/main/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/egg-products-preparation/shell-eggs-from-farm-to-table/ct_index#21

Quote
Why do hard-cooked eggs spoil faster than fresh eggs?
When shell eggs are hard cooked, the protective coating is washed away, leaving bare the pores in the shell for bacteria to enter and contaminate it. Hard-cooked eggs should be refrigerated within 2 hours of cooking and used within a week.

So that is not a general rule of thumb but a specific recommendation for hardboiled eggs.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Ah.hell on May 15, 2019, 11:17:41 AM
I am amused by the length of this thread.  I wouldn't have thrown out the eggs.  I would have eaten them but probably not have fed them to my toddler and baby. 

I am surprised by the passion for such a rather mundane thing. 

Seriously 8 pages? 

Its a great lesson for the threads about things that actually matter.   Maybe I won't get so frustrated talking in circles about politics if I remember that we did the same thing for 8+ pages on boiled eggs. 

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 15, 2019, 12:10:51 PM

The ‘2 hour rule’ is an excessive rule of thumb, fits all sizes generalization.


This is correct. It is easier for a government agency to assign one rule to a group of meals then to study each meals individually. And easier for the general public to remember one rule. And I have been saying that this rule is in place for a larger population to keep said larger population safe, and it expects that said larger population follow the rule even if it is excessive. 

But you are arguing an extreme. Talking about a food item left out for more than 12 hours. That is way more time for any perishable food. Especially considering that bacteria can reach unsafe levels in 5 hours even starting with a minimum count. The most extreme situations I've seen as a recommendation specifically for unshelled hard boiled egg is about 8 hours. And this is from colleges (experts from universities that study poultry food safety). And it doesn't matter if it was sterile before.
You are arguing that it is sterile after more than 12 hours and can't possible be unsafe. But this is an extreme position that you cannot say given what we (science) know about bacterial growth and food poisoning.

The scenario superdave was talking about was hard boiling eggs (presumably at night), forgetting about them and finding them in the pot (with the sterile boiled water the next morning), so we’re not talking about leaving them out for more than 12 hours.  And they’re not being left ‘out.’  They’re in sterile boiled water, for around your ‘extreme’ of 8 hours.  For them to be contaminated, first of all the water needs to be contaminated, which reduces the time they’re ‘out,’ exposed to external bacteria.

The eggs in the scenario being discussed are ‘safe’ to eat.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 15, 2019, 02:06:20 PM
I am amused by the length of this thread.  I wouldn't have thrown out the eggs.  I would have eaten them but probably not have fed them to my toddler and baby. 

I am surprised by the passion for such a rather mundane thing. 

Seriously 8 pages? 

Its a great lesson for the threads about things that actually matter.   Maybe I won't get so frustrated talking in circles about politics if I remember that we did the same thing for 8+ pages on boiled eggs.

I would argue that food safety discussion matters more than some of the crap in the politics forum even if it is only about eggs.  >:D

superdave didn't answer yet and nobody else commented.

*to anyone*

Is it a good idea to turn this into a food safety thread or should I start another one?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: The Latinist on May 18, 2019, 01:37:51 PM
Water boiled and left in a pot overnight is not sterile.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: brilligtove on May 18, 2019, 01:49:14 PM
Water boiled and left in a pot overnight is not sterile.

I wonder how much contamination would happen if the pot were boiled with a lid on, and the cover was left undisturbed overnight.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: brilligtove on May 18, 2019, 01:51:15 PM
I am amused by the length of this thread.  I wouldn't have thrown out the eggs.  I would have eaten them but probably not have fed them to my toddler and baby. 

I am surprised by the passion for such a rather mundane thing. 

Seriously 8 pages? 

Its a great lesson for the threads about things that actually matter.   Maybe I won't get so frustrated talking in circles about politics if I remember that we did the same thing for 8+ pages on boiled eggs.

I would argue that food safety discussion matters more than some of the crap in the politics forum even if it is only about eggs.  >:D

superdave didn't answer yet and nobody else commented.

*to anyone*

Is it a good idea to turn this into a food safety thread or should I start another one?

Now that I've added to this, I think you should start a food safety thread. I'd like to hear about what kinds of things you need to do to keep things safe in the truck, but also talk about more general issues.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 18, 2019, 02:52:40 PM


Now that I've added to this, I think you should start a food safety thread. I'd like to hear about what kinds of things you need to do to keep things safe in the truck, but also talk about more general issues.

Good idea. 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 18, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
I have been waiting to have a discussion on condiments. Nobody refrigerates them at restaurants even though they say to refrigerate on the bottles. It seems to be ok not too because of salt and vinegar and I don't know any restaurant that does at least not the squirt bottles.

I make my own sauces, my "BBQ Red" is really a Memphis style red sauce, its mostly ketchup, vinegar, sugar, and other seasonings that are all normally considered shelf stable on their own except I start by cooking some minced onion before adding anything and I reduce everything over heat, is my sauce still shelf stable? I'm currently doing half and half, I'm refrigerating the larger batch and not the squeeze bottles I put out for my customers. I would like to make larger batches but don't have the refrigerator space, I want to make 5 gallon buckets and store it on the shelf.

my "BBQ Yellow" has a similar issue, its not cooked and its mostly mustard, vinegar, and honey but it also contains a small amount of melted butter.

Oddly enough for personal use I do keep my ketchup and mustard in the fridge but this is out of habit. I'm refrigerating neither for work. I use plastic #10 cans with pumps. The pumps are cleaned at the end of the shift and replaced by normal lids for storage.

What is safe? and if they are shelf safe, for how long? 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 18, 2019, 06:25:51 PM
I make my own chile salsa and salsa verde.  I put it up in 400ml pop up lid jars (peanut butter, pasta sauce, jam...) I get from the recycling bins.  Lasts for years (except most get eaten before the end of the next harvest).  Gotta be sure to sterilise things and that the lids pop down.  Opened, the salsas get better for fortnight then the mould arrives.


(https://i.imgur.com/g4EHT4L.jpg)

From the last tomatillo bush.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 18, 2019, 06:38:31 PM
I have considered canning in jars if it turns out the sauce is not shelf stable but that would add more labor and time.

My partner is servsafe certified but does not remember the question coming up when he took the class if it did at all. I plan on taking it myself and I'm sure they will give me the best answer that fits in with American food safety regulations but in the meantime I wanted to see if anyone else has any incite.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 18, 2019, 09:35:13 PM
If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 18, 2019, 10:18:34 PM
If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All of the sauce our just the holding sauce? I have never seen a restaurant refrigerate BBQ sauce, its on the tables.

I did find this

https://www.thespruceeats.com/foods-that-dont-go-in-the-fridge-995448

Quote
The median pH value for commercial barbecue sauce is 3.92, and it ranges from 3.47–4.15. Since food with a pH value lower than 4.5 is too acidic to support the growth of spoilage bacteria, it's safe to store barbecue sauce at room temperature, in your cupboard or pantry.

I don't know what my PH is but now i'm going to find out. I have seen the strips sold at the restaurant supply store.

interesting about the butter too which I was concerned about in my non cooked sauce.

Quote
Butter is mostly fat and contains very little protein—not enough to support the growth of bacteria. Salted butter has an even longer shelf life. But unless you're following a recipe for pie dough, cookies or scones that calls for cold butter, there is no need to refrigerate it.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 18, 2019, 10:35:29 PM
I have been waiting to have a discussion on condiments. Nobody refrigerates them at restaurants even though they say to refrigerate on the bottles. It seems to be ok not too because of salt and vinegar and I don't know any restaurant that does at least not the squirt bottles.

I make my own sauces, my "BBQ Red" is really a Memphis style red sauce, its mostly ketchup, vinegar, sugar, and other seasonings that are all normally considered shelf stable on their own except I start by cooking some minced onion before adding anything and I reduce everything over heat, is my sauce still shelf stable? I'm currently doing half and half, I'm refrigerating the larger batch and not the squeeze bottles I put out for my customers. I would like to make larger batches but don't have the refrigerator space, I want to make 5 gallon buckets and store it on the shelf.

my "BBQ Yellow" has a similar issue, its not cooked and its mostly mustard, vinegar, and honey but it also contains a small amount of melted butter.

Oddly enough for personal use I do keep my ketchup and mustard in the fridge but this is out of habit. I'm refrigerating neither for work. I use plastic #10 cans with pumps. The pumps are cleaned at the end of the shift and replaced by normal lids for storage.

What is safe? and if they are shelf safe, for how long? 
Basically, high acidic foods can last longer after opened. If it contains salt or other preservatives like sodium Benzoate they can last longer. These are not good environments for most bacteria and molds.

tldr: Your BBQ Red and BBQ Yellow seem shelf stable Because of the Vinegar, Ketchup and honey. Keep Good Health Practices and you should be fine.

Most restaurants refrigerate their condiments (ketchup and stuff) after hours. But it shouldn't be a problem if left on the shelf for some days. The thing is that the rotation tends to be high so a bottle of ketchup would not last a week and the good restaurants will throw out anything that is older than a week or so.

The thing with with the comercial products, is that if left on the cupboard the quality degrades as oxidation and some bacteria and mold would change the color, texture, and taste. So manufacturers are more concerned with this, because the quality will decrease considerably before the product spoils. So they suggest refrigeration, to keep the quality the longest. The numbers are not easily available but spoilage for ketchup after opened and on the cupboard might take around 2 to 3 months. You get a quality dip at around the 1 month mark. With refrigeration it last somewhere between 6 to 12 months.

Your products seem shelf stable. You could perform a stability test. Take two samples. Place one in the fridge and one in the cupboard. Every week test for freshness and quality on both. When you find the Cupboard sample not to your standard, that is your recommended shelf life.

It is also important to consider how much of the condiment is used per week. So if a bottle is used up in a week, or if they last months.

Regardless you should follow some good health practices.
1) Keep your condiments in the fridge on off hours.
2) Always clean and sterilize the containers.
3) Place a sticker with the date of manufacture or a best by date. This you get it with the stability test. This way you always know when your condiment is starting to lose quality.
4) throw away any condiment that is too old.
5) Don't combine used condiments.
6) Be aware of dirt and other contaminantes.

You can store your bulk on the shelf until you open it the first time. Canning is good, but you could find a large container that is airtight, and you should be fine. Just make sure to always label the dates, and once you open the container, it should go to the fridge.

Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 18, 2019, 11:08:05 PM
I bemused by the claims that an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot of sterile boiled water is unsafe after being at room temperature for 8 hours, but that an opened bottle of tomato sauce is safe after being at room temperature for 8 weeks.

I keep my tomato sauce in the fridge (I use it so rarely, it’s the one ‘food’ that I discard because it’s gone off, usually due to surface moulds in the bottle), but I’ll happily eat unshelled hard boiled eggs left at room temperature for 8 hours (but I re-hard boil them before eating, because I like them hot, which must eliminate the already negligible safety risk). 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: jt512 on May 19, 2019, 04:46:40 AM
If you’re making your own condiments, you probably want to refrigerate them.

The ones you get at the supermarket and restaurant supply store have preservatives that inhibit bacterial growth. (Although the organic versions may not)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All of the sauce our just the holding sauce? I have never seen a restaurant refrigerate BBQ sauce, its on the tables.

I did find this

https://www.thespruceeats.com/foods-that-dont-go-in-the-fridge-995448 (https://www.thespruceeats.com/foods-that-dont-go-in-the-fridge-995448)

Quote
The median pH value for commercial barbecue sauce is 3.92, and it ranges from 3.47–4.15. Since food with a pH value lower than 4.5 is too acidic to support the growth of spoilage bacteria, it's safe to store barbecue sauce at room temperature, in your cupboard or pantry.

I don't know what my PH is but now i'm going to find out. I have seen the strips sold at the restaurant supply store.

interesting about the butter too which I was concerned about in my non cooked sauce.

Quote
Butter is mostly fat and contains very little protein—not enough to support the growth of bacteria. Salted butter has an even longer shelf life. But unless you're following a recipe for pie dough, cookies or scones that calls for cold butter, there is no need to refrigerate it.


Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 19, 2019, 05:20:35 AM

Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.

Not in our house.... a 500g block only last four or five days.  Too yummy.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: xenu on May 19, 2019, 07:48:43 AM
(Caution Old man rant)

When I was growing up my mom never refrigerated the butter. Never liked it cold, it was much to hard to spread.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 19, 2019, 10:15:49 AM
I bemused by the claims that an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot of sterile boiled water is unsafe after being at room temperature for 8 hours, but that an opened bottle of tomato sauce is safe after being at room temperature for 8 weeks.

I keep my tomato sauce in the fridge (I use it so rarely, it’s the one ‘food’ that I discard because it’s gone off, usually due to surface moulds in the bottle), but I’ll happily eat unshelled hard boiled eggs left at room temperature for 8 hours (but I re-hard boil them before eating, because I like them hot, which must eliminate the already negligible safety risk).
Ketchup is made with vinegar and is not a good medium for bacteria.

Eggs are a good medium for bacteria.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: xenu on May 19, 2019, 12:51:13 PM
Quote
  Eggs are a good medium for bacteria   

Don't forget viruses to  ;)
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Captain Video on May 19, 2019, 01:24:48 PM

Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.

im guessing you didnt go to the site, here is the rest of the quote

Quote
Like peanut butter, butter can go rancid if exposed to oxygen, light, and heat. But as long as you keep it in an opaque butter dish, and use it in a reasonable amount of time, it's perfectly OK to store butter on the kitchen counter.

I keep a stick of salted butter on the counter at all times, this is the tray I use, I recommend them.

https://www.amazon.com/Better-Dish-Flip-Top-without-Spreader/dp/B07JQ2PJM1/ref=zg_bs_367166011_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=R03SRDKRNCJVYCXSQJQ8

Growing up mom kept it in a glass covered tray as did my grandparents and it was still ok, probably because one stick barely lasted a whole day, maybe two.

There are few things worse than un spreadable cold butter ripping up your bread. I do keep the backups in the fridge

The site may have been simplistic but it lead me to ask the right questions in my research and it explained in simple terms why its ok.

Here is the FDA pdf: Evaluation and Definition of Potentially Hazardous Foods

https://www.fda.gov/media/103613/download

Quote
Product: Salted butter. The product is not held hot or cold
for safety. However, during commercial handling, storage, and
distribution product is held at low temperatures for quality reasons. The ingredients of the product are cream and salt. The
product is intended to be stored at ambient temperature.
Microbiological hazards: S. aureus, L. monocytogenes. There is
no history of safety problems when the consumer does not
control time/temperature of commercial salted butter.

Many food safety questions are answered in this document but Its hard to search and prefer to discuss them publicly. I mite want to treat my own preparations with more caution than the government allows based on quality.

Not to discount anyone else but Guillermos advice has been fantastic. I think this is a good conversation for all.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: jt512 on May 19, 2019, 02:26:01 PM

Butter may not spoil, but it will become rancid.  I think you need to find another website.

im guessing you didnt go to the site, here is the rest of the quote

Quote
Like peanut butter, butter can go rancid if exposed to oxygen, light, and heat. But as long as you keep it in an opaque butter dish, and use it in a reasonable amount of time, it's perfectly OK to store butter on the kitchen counter.

I‘m guessing you failed to adequately express what the site said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 19, 2019, 02:40:50 PM
What ever happened to the five second rule, anyway? 
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: CarbShark on May 19, 2019, 07:18:36 PM
What ever happened to the five second rule, anyway?
I have a rule.

Don’t eat at restaurants the use the five second rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: lonely moa on May 20, 2019, 04:37:09 AM
What ever happened to the five second rule, anyway?
I have a rule.

Don’t eat at restaurants the use the five second rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How would you know?  Remember "Driving Miss Daisy?
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: bachfiend on May 20, 2019, 08:51:16 AM
I bemused by the claims that an unshelled hard boiled egg in a pot of sterile boiled water is unsafe after being at room temperature for 8 hours, but that an opened bottle of tomato sauce is safe after being at room temperature for 8 weeks.

I keep my tomato sauce in the fridge (I use it so rarely, it’s the one ‘food’ that I discard because it’s gone off, usually due to surface moulds in the bottle), but I’ll happily eat unshelled hard boiled eggs left at room temperature for 8 hours (but I re-hard boil them before eating, because I like them hot, which must eliminate the already negligible safety risk).
Ketchup is made with vinegar and is not a good medium for bacteria.

Eggs are a good medium for bacteria.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Raw eggs, even in the intact shell, at room temperature are a good culture medium for bacteria (and viruses).  If poultry farmers don’t follow best practice, and allow their eggs to cool while contaminated with chicken faecal material, as the contents of the eggs cool and contract, and a partial negative pressure is created within the eggs, some of the faecal material is sucked in contaminating the eggs.  And then if the eggs are transported and displayed at room temperature, then the contaminating bacteria can multiply greatly.  And then if the eggs aren’t adequately cooked, gastroenteritis can result (hard boiling eggs, though, should destroy most if not all significant pathogens.

Hard boiled eggs aren’t as good a culture medium.  But even if they were, the bacteria have to get into the eggs.  Either after getting into the pot of sterile boiled water, then through the shell, and then finally through the solid substance of the hard boiled egg (the original scenario).  Or through the dry intact shell (which is porous, but bacteria need moisture to move - wrapping sterile surgical instruments in dry paper after autoclaving ensures sterility).  And then through the solid substance of the hard boiled egg.

Scrambled eggs on a plate exposed to the outside air at room temperature can be dangerous after 2 hours.  Unshelled hard boiled eggs at room temperature have a much longer shelf life.  And as I’ve noted many times, if you’re worried (paranoid would be a better word) about a negligible risk, you can always re-hard boil the eggs.
Title: Re: make hard boiled eggs, then forgot and left them overnight in the pota
Post by: Guillermo on May 23, 2019, 07:25:13 AM

Many food safety questions are answered in this document but Its hard to search and prefer to discuss them publicly. I mite want to treat my own preparations with more caution than the government allows based on quality.

There are many things that the USDA and FDA allows that I find weird comparing to the food safety of other countries. And vice Versa.

The idea is to do everything you can to protect the public at your most acceptable cost. Most regulations will say that you should keep something at a certain minimum. How you do it is really up to you, and there are hundreds of ways to be compliant. It's all based on best practices and record keeping.