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Media => TV & Movies => Topic started by: The Latinist on April 14, 2019, 11:11:20 PM

Title: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on April 14, 2019, 11:11:20 PM
This thread is for openly discussing aired episodes of S8 of GoT. If you haven’t yet watched the latest episode an don’t wish to be spoiled, please don’t read this thread!

You have been warned.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 14, 2019, 11:14:06 PM
TBH, I thought 8.1 was a bit of a mess.  They had so many reunions to deal with that none of them really hit home, and so much plot to set up that nothing really happened. I was disappointed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 15, 2019, 01:30:36 PM
TBH, I thought 8.1 was a bit of a mess.  They had so many reunions to deal with that none of them really hit home, and so much plot to set up that nothing really happened. I was disappointed.

They teased us with a battle then we had another reunion.

We had a good time anyway. When you watch with a few friends and make it a small party its always better. There were some serious moments we were happy about, lots of woos and yeas hollered out loud.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: wastrel on April 15, 2019, 02:00:11 PM
I guess I am very easy to please.  I didn't feel let down at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: moj on April 15, 2019, 02:19:41 PM
We enjoyed it, but yes it was all pretty much setting the stage for the next ones. So far I'm number two in our fantasy league. A friend set it up but makes it more fun to follow.

https://www.fantasizr.com/

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 15, 2019, 02:46:00 PM
I was also underwhelmed. For an hour-long episode, the plot did not really move forward, but there was also little time for proper character moments. There were reunions but they were all kinda short and they weren't milked for any emotional punch. Jon's reveal especially fell flat. They wasted an inordinate amount of time on CGI dragon flying and instead of at least using that pointless scene to seed the thought in Dany (she should know that only Targs can ride dragons) to be reveled later, it was blurted out in a monologue. Because buildup and "show not tell" is for shows with less writing Emmys.



A few nitpicks:

- It was refreshing to see that the first bit of dialogue was a dick joke. It was, in itself, worth an Emmy.
- If I understand it correctly, last time we left off, Dany's army was still at Dragonstone or around King's Landing. That is three times as far from Winterfell as Eastwatch, but they somehow managed to comfortably arrive before the army of the dead that don't even need to rest or seek provisions.
- No interaction between Lyanna Mormont and Jorah? Not even a wave?
- The show seems to continue with the constant vilification of Sansa, who is clearly the smartest person in the North. I suppose asking perfectly legitimate questions and being distrustful of random Southern floozies is a bad thing nnow.
- Was the little boy in that castle Microjon Umber? It wasn't quite clear to me.
- Does Bran ever move from the courtyard?
- Why was Sam upset that his father was dead?
- Were they CASTING dragonglass (obsidian) in a regular forge? How does that work?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 15, 2019, 02:48:31 PM
Bran was waiting for Jamie


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on April 15, 2019, 03:06:50 PM
Viewers who thought this episode was "boring" or "slow" are exactly like NASCAR fans who watch only for the wrecks or hockey fans who watch games only for the fights. Don't worry, kids. There'll be plenty of fighting and big battles later. But y'know, you gotta have character time so viewers can care about the people doing all that fighting.

I thought this episode was fine and did exactly what it was supposed to do. We have so many characters with history with each other, many of whom have been widely separated for years/months storytime now coming back together. We needed to see the  reunions between Anya and Jon, Anya and The Hound, Sansa and Tyrion, no matter how brief.   

Responding to Rai:

- You complain that this episode was slow and did nothing to advance the plot...do ya really want to see an episode of Dany's army on the match and scourging for food? It's called the magic of movies (or TV in this case). We never see how Carl Denham transports King Kong to New York from Skull Island. It's not really important to the story. All that matters is that he does.  Hasn't it been established that The Unsullied are possessed of incredible stamina and determination? Still, I'm sure they were exhausted and hungry by the time they reached Winterfell. I'm sure the route they took to get there was extensively hunted out (between the winter and the wars, Westeros fauna is going to take a major ecological  hit). Do we need to see all that? How many people complain the Lord of the Rings movies are nothing but walking? Sometimes you just have to fill in minor details in your head.

-I think Sam was more upset at his brother's death than his father's.



 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 15, 2019, 03:11:34 PM
Responding to Rai:

- You complain that this episode was slow and did nothing to advance the plot...do ya really want to see an episode of Dany's army on the match and scourging for food? It's called the magic of movies (or TV in this case). We never see how Carl Denham transports King Kong to New York from Skull Island. It's not really important to the story. All that matters is that he does.  Hasn't it been established that The Unsullied are possessed of incredible stamina and determination? Still, I'm sure they were exhausted and hungry by the time they reached Winterfell. I'm sure the route they took to get there was extensively hunted out (between the winter and the wars, Westeros fauna is going to take a major ecological  hit). Do we need to see all that? How many people complain the Lord of the Rings movies are nothing but walking? Sometimes you just have to fill in minor details in your head.

My comment was mostly about how the writers still don't give a crap about time and space, resulting in characters continuing to teleport around the world. It was a very egregious issue last season and it seems to have only gotten worse.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 15, 2019, 04:17:50 PM
This was mostly a re-introduction and set-up episode. I expect we'll get much more action for the rest pf the season.

- Was the little boy in that castle Microjon Umber? It wasn't quite clear to me.

Beric does say "it's the Umber boy"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: wastrel on April 15, 2019, 04:25:25 PM
I was actually surprised Jon found out his true heritage in this ep.

And Tinyjon going all blue-eyed shrieky at the end was great imho.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 15, 2019, 07:46:52 PM
Viewers who thought this episode was "boring" or "slow" are exactly like NASCAR fans who watch only for the wrecks or hockey fans who watch games only for the fights. Don't worry, kids. There'll be plenty of fighting and big battles later. But y'know, you gotta have character time so viewers can care about the people doing all that fighting.

But this episode didn’t really develop character, either.  There were so many things they crammed into this episode that none of them received the attention it deserved and I was left feeling that we were just spinning our wheels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 15, 2019, 10:30:19 PM
I just watched it again,

Will Bronn kill the Lanister brothers with the crossbow?

I think yes

Will he give Tyrion a chance to match the price?

I think yes, depending on how this works out they mite be able to afford it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on April 16, 2019, 05:19:16 PM
Responding to Rai:

- You complain that this episode was slow and did nothing to advance the plot...do ya really want to see an episode of Dany's army on the match and scourging for food? It's called the magic of movies (or TV in this case). We never see how Carl Denham transports King Kong to New York from Skull Island. It's not really important to the story. All that matters is that he does.  Hasn't it been established that The Unsullied are possessed of incredible stamina and determination? Still, I'm sure they were exhausted and hungry by the time they reached Winterfell. I'm sure the route they took to get there was extensively hunted out (between the winter and the wars, Westeros fauna is going to take a major ecological  hit). Do we need to see all that? How many people complain the Lord of the Rings movies are nothing but walking? Sometimes you just have to fill in minor details in your head.

My comment was mostly about how the writers still don't give a crap about time and space, resulting in characters continuing to teleport around the world. It was a very egregious issue last season and it seems to have only gotten worse.

I certainly hope the prequel series or Amazon's LOTR series have time-stamps up the wazoo. Every scene transition, a time stamp: "one day later", "several weeks later", whatever. Even when a character walks from one room to another in the same building ,"two seconds later" super-imposed on the screen.  Evidently they are highly needed. People just can't fill-in elapsed time in their heads, I guess.

Tho I WILL admit the show fudged time pretty good  in the episode with Jon and company trapped on the lake by wights and Gendry running to get Dany's help.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 16, 2019, 06:44:39 PM
Bran was waiting for Jamie


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But for how long I believe is the point? Did he leave to use the bathroom?

I dont see it as a problem though, time and space stopped mattering ages ago.

Idk. The show is just fan service now as opposed to the trope subverting story with consequences to actions that I got on board with originally. If it had been this all along I would have liked it but they set this up as a world where nuts and bolts mattered and now they dont.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 17, 2019, 12:55:11 AM
The only thing Bran did this episode is ominously waiting in the courtyard for at least three different people.

I guess Winterfell is not wheelchair-accessible, and he is too much of an emotionless all-knowing robot to ask for assistance. "Nobody carries the Three Eyed Raven up the stairs to have a shit!"

I certainly hope the prequel series or Amazon's LOTR series have time-stamps up the wazoo. Every scene transition, a time stamp: "one day later", "several weeks later", whatever. Even when a character walks from one room to another in the same building ,"two seconds later" super-imposed on the screen.  Evidently they are highly needed. People just can't fill-in elapsed time in their heads, I guess. .

You a trivialising a major issue with the show that started with Littlefinger randomly traversing the continent at a whim, but became egregious after the end of season 6, when in the space of 10 on-screen minutes, Varys went from Dorne to Mereen. Since then we had armies, navies and individuals appear at any location, no matter the distance. It is mostly due to lazy writing and a rush to squeeze everything in (while wasting time on filler episodes, dick jokes, the boob quota, dragon riding dates and other pointless nonsense), but since no effort whatsoever is made to somehow counteract the inconsistencies, the internal logic of the show has fallen apart.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on April 17, 2019, 01:36:32 AM
I don't have HBO so I just read this entire thing (https://imgur.com/gallery/Qhq2Cu6) to catch up.

SAMPLE CONTENT:

(https://i.imgur.com/YmSpJ0r.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nTj0CG3.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 17, 2019, 02:48:13 AM
You a trivialising a major issue with the show that started with Littlefinger randomly traversing the continent at a whim, but became egregious after the end of season 6, when in the space of 10 on-screen minutes, Varys went from Dorne to Mereen. Since then we had armies, navies and individuals appear at any location, no matter the distance. It is mostly due to lazy writing and a rush to squeeze everything in (while wasting time on filler episodes, dick jokes, the boob quota, dragon riding dates and other pointless nonsense), but since no effort whatsoever is made to somehow counteract the inconsistencies, the internal logic of the show has fallen apart.

(https://i.imgur.com/SBcYe5B.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 17, 2019, 05:28:33 AM
I don't have HBO so I just read this entire thing (https://imgur.com/gallery/Qhq2Cu6) to catch up.


This is a fantastic amplification of how stupid the episode was

This may be the best bit:
(https://i.imgur.com/eYhM2IL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9GFrFrr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zKrunDd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/HEC9Mmy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/uQg2sjb.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 17, 2019, 06:18:54 AM

Other than the romantic flight, I enjoyed this ep.  I like reunions.


As far as character moments, Sam's reaction to his family's death was great.  I know his father was a shit, but Sam always wanted his father to accept him and it is easy to have real emotional reactions like that.  Then when he found out his brother was killed as well, it broke him further.  I thought John Bradley was the star of this episode.  It might be because I really hated my father for years.  We eventually reconciled and he died two years ago.


The weakest plot point, that will remain a problem, is Bran.  Why not ask questions like "where is the Lannister Army right now?"  "Where is the Night King's army right now?"  "Where can we find more food?"  If he can see everything, why not use that?






Also, I thought I'd share my new favorite GoT recap show:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 21, 2019, 10:19:58 PM
OK, that just sucked, (8-2)

Did we really need the unnecessary sex scene where Jaime and Brienne do it in front of the others like that?

Hey lets trigger a temperamental insecure young queen moments before a battle, good plan.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 21, 2019, 11:37:39 PM
Did we really need the unnecessary sex scene where Jaime and Brienne do it in front of the others like that?

and in front of her obsessed stalker Tormund as well  ;)

It is a scene we all wanted to see, but was it actually legal under Westeros' strict knightly code ???

We also didn't really need to see Arya and Gendry getting it on  ??? Their relationship never seemed headed in that direction.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 22, 2019, 01:26:31 AM
Did we really need the unnecessary sex scene where Jaime and Brienne do it in front of the others like that?

and in front of her obsessed stalker Tormund as well  ;)

It is a scene we all wanted to see, but was it actually legal under Westeros' strict knightly code ???

We also didn't really need to see Arya and Gendry getting it on  ??? Their relationship never seemed headed in that direction.
I tell you the spinoff “Gundry Loves Arya” practically writes itself


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 22, 2019, 01:27:58 AM
Was that the first episode where no one got killed?


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 22, 2019, 03:43:22 AM
Was that the first episode where no one got killed?

No, there have been at least 6 episodes (including todays) where no-one got killed

1x03 "Lord Snow"
2x08 "The Prince of Winterfell"
3x01 "Valar Dohaeris"
3x02 "Dark Wings, Dark Words"
3x07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"
8x02 "“A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”

According to this website:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/58593/is-there-an-episode-of-game-of-thrones-where-nobody-dies
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 05:29:38 AM
This was quite the filler episode, especially when last week they were already teasing the battle. And that Arya scene was just squicky. "Finally she is not a child, now we can get her naked". These showrunners...

- for a second I thought Dany and Sansa were going to stop being catty, but then they talked abput men a bit and returned to being catty
- why was Davos manning the soup kitchen?
- on what authority did Jaime knight Brienne?
- finally Jon has an actual title, but no-one seems to mind the unfortunate connotations of 'Warden of the North'
- also he still has no chemistry whatsoever with Dany
- after talking about retirement, Missandei and Grey Worm are gonna die for sure. There goes the only believable relationship on this show.
- I liked that there was a Mormont reunion, even if it was kinda meh
- Why is everyone wearing black?
- Ghost came back from his cgi budget-related holiday to stand in the background for one scene!
- Why is Jon called Aegon? Either Rheagar loved it so mich he named both his sons like that, or the writers are lazy.

Also, somehow I was missing the feeling of dread, no matter how hard they tried. I don't know exactly where they failed, but it did not work at all.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 22, 2019, 06:28:40 AM
- on what authority did Jaime knight Brienne?

It is mentioned in the books (ASoIaF) and also the Tales of Dunk and Egg novellas that any Knight can make another person a knight. A King can also do it.

It is not something meant to be done lightly. Which makes what Jaime does even more noble.


- after talking about retirement, Missandei and Grey Worm are gonna die for sure. There goes the only believable relationship on this show.

I had the opposite reaction. I thought after that promise to each other they were certain to survive.
If it was set up in the book I'd be worried, but it seems to be the show runners setting up something that will be played out in the finale.
I think, and hope, we get to see them survive and get their wish to see the beach.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 22, 2019, 07:34:53 AM
I thought it was fine.
Any episode with The Hound is fine by me.
Did not need Arya and Gendry to get it on for the camera but I guess at least it was Arya getting hers. Kind of weird how she treated Gendry being raped though.

They seemed to be running out of time to get everything ready but the nobs still had time to sit in a massive room with a big fire while people freeze outside so they can drink wine and chat shit....I guess that checks out. Very against character for Brienne though, I dont care how many lines of her arm being twisted they cared to add.
Has no knight ever gotten drunk and started knighting random people before? Like it seems that there would be a story about some senile knight who made his grand daughter a knight or something and then she technically was because rules.

Could really do without being reminded of racism in my dragon fantasy show. Its not like Grey Worm needed more pathos or tragedy.

I didnt mind the stuff with Dany and everybody else because I have seen her as a villain in waiting for the last 3 or 4 seasons. She wants to be a good queen but is more interested in being the latter than the former.

I think the most logical person to be on the iron throne at the end is Sansa. She wont be in any battles and is the smartest and most deserving person to do it. She is also the widow of a king so could have a claim and has Arya for a hand/bodyguard.

They have more food at Winterfell than I thought.
Edit- Sansa isnt the widow of a king. My bad, I got mixed up about Joffreys wedding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 22, 2019, 09:59:32 AM
I think this is a situation where bing watching the show would be better.  I am guessing that if one watched episodes 1-3 consecutively they might form a more cohesive whole.  As it is, the first two episodes have seemed way off-pace.

Rai:

1) Sansa and Danaerys’s discussion of John was actually what seemed on the point of bringing them together; it was only when Sansa brought up the independence of the north that the ice returned.

2) Jamie knighted Brienne on his own authority, as he made clear in the show. “Any knight can make a knight,” the fact that we have not seen it done in the show notwithstanding.

3) Rhaegar Targaryen died before the birth of his son by Lyanna Stark.  It was she who named him Aegon, telling only Ned Stark his name.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
I think this is a situation where bing watching the show would be better.  I am guessing that if one watched episodes 1-3 consecutively they might form a more cohesive whole.  As it is, the first two episodes have seemed way off-pace.

Rai:

1) Sansa and Danaerys’s discussion of John was actually what seemed on the point of bringing them together; it was only when Sansa brought up the independence of the north that the ice returned.

2) Jamie knighted Brienne on his own authority, as he made clear in the show. “Any knight can make a knight,” the fact that we have not seen it done in the show notwithstanding.

3) Rhaegar Targaryen died before the birth of his son by Lyanna Stark.  It was she who named him Aegon, telling only Ned Stark his name.

1, true (though it is a shame that the discussion ended when the important topic came up), but their antagonistic personal relationship is really weird and typical for the show. The last time I remember female characters being nice to each other was Sansa and Maergery way back in Season 3. Yes, they have their political differences, but beyond that, there is no need to be so catty.

2, knowing that Jaime is, at this stage, an aging, failed hedge knight, who broke all wows and betrayed basically everyone at one point or the other, it felt off to me. That being said, the number of surviving named knights in the series is not particularly high.

3, it is still a lazy choice.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 22, 2019, 12:06:25 PM
As far as women not getting along,  Sansa and Arya seem to be getting on well enough since the whole Littlefinger thing last season.  One would assume Dany and Missandei are getting along, though we don't really see them together.  Sansa still loves and trusts Ser Brianne as well.


Of course there is conflict between them.  Drama is all about conflicts.  If they all just got along there would be nothing to show.  Hence why we're not seeing it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 22, 2019, 01:51:21 PM
Yet most of the scenes with guys are all about how much they get along.
 Even if they have actual good reasons to dislike each other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 22, 2019, 02:19:13 PM
I don't think Bran and Jamie were getting along any better than Sansa and Dany.  The people of Winterfell were not getting along with Tyrion or Jamie.  Either way, it was a low-conflict episode in a high-conflict show.  Sansa and Dany are the best players of the Game left north of Kings Landing, now that Varys is silent and Tyrion has grown stupid.  Of course they will have conflict.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 02:53:41 PM
Arya promised to peel the face off Sansa's skin last season and they haven't really interacted at all this two episodes. I would not call that cordial.

As for Bran and Jaime, they were still friendly to each other, even though one tried to murder the other. And Bran is an emotionless robot that just appears at random locations to glare at people anyway.

Meanwhile, Tyrion killed three sons of Davos, along with thousands of his comrades and the two are best chums. No-one has one bad word about a random excentric wildling and just hangs out with this barbarian. Even Sandor effin' Clegane is on good terms with the male cast. But the women, they always fight with each other for no apparent reason, if they have meaningful interactions.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 22, 2019, 02:58:46 PM
Arya promised to peel the face off Sansa's skin last season and they haven't really interacted at all this two episodes. I would not call that cordial.

As for Bran and Jaime, they were still friendly to each other, even though one tried to murder the other. And Bran is an emotionless robot that just appears at random locations to glare at people anyway.

Meanwhile, Tyrion killed three sons of Davos, along with thousands of his comrades and the two are best chums. No-one has one bad word about a random excentric wildling and just hangs out with this barbarian. Even Sandor effin' Clegane is on good terms with the male cast. But the women, they always fight with each other for no apparent reason, if they have meaningful interactions.
Yeah, plotting the death of Littlefinger is not really interactive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
Arya promised to peel the face off Sansa's skin last season and they haven't really interacted at all this two episodes. I would not call that cordial.

As for Bran and Jaime, they were still friendly to each other, even though one tried to murder the other. And Bran is an emotionless robot that just appears at random locations to glare at people anyway.

Meanwhile, Tyrion killed three sons of Davos, along with thousands of his comrades and the two are best chums. No-one has one bad word about a random excentric wildling and just hangs out with this barbarian. Even Sandor effin' Clegane is on good terms with the male cast. But the women, they always fight with each other for no apparent reason, if they have meaningful interactions.
Yeah, plotting the death of Littlefinger is not really interactive.

Especially if the plot makes no sense whatsoever. The two sisters (one of whom the de facto ruler of the realm) have to fight with each other in particularly nasty ways in private, and also plot strictly off-screen to bring down an isolated man through a farcical trial with no evidence.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 22, 2019, 04:12:06 PM
Arya promised to peel the face off Sansa's skin last season and they haven't really interacted at all this two episodes. I would not call that cordial.

As for Bran and Jaime, they were still friendly to each other, even though one tried to murder the other. And Bran is an emotionless robot that just appears at random locations to glare at people anyway.

Meanwhile, Tyrion killed three sons of Davos, along with thousands of his comrades and the two are best chums. No-one has one bad word about a random excentric wildling and just hangs out with this barbarian. Even Sandor effin' Clegane is on good terms with the male cast. But the women, they always fight with each other for no apparent reason, if they have meaningful interactions.
Yeah, plotting the death of Littlefinger is not really interactive.

Especially if the plot makes no sense whatsoever. The two sisters (one of whom the de facto ruler of the realm) have to fight with each other in particularly nasty ways in private, and also plot strictly off-screen to bring down an isolated man through a farcical trial with no evidence.

They had Bran's word on it. That's all the evidence they needed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 04:16:49 PM
Arya promised to peel the face off Sansa's skin last season and they haven't really interacted at all this two episodes. I would not call that cordial.

As for Bran and Jaime, they were still friendly to each other, even though one tried to murder the other. And Bran is an emotionless robot that just appears at random locations to glare at people anyway.

Meanwhile, Tyrion killed three sons of Davos, along with thousands of his comrades and the two are best chums. No-one has one bad word about a random excentric wildling and just hangs out with this barbarian. Even Sandor effin' Clegane is on good terms with the male cast. But the women, they always fight with each other for no apparent reason, if they have meaningful interactions.
Yeah, plotting the death of Littlefinger is not really interactive.

Especially if the plot makes no sense whatsoever. The two sisters (one of whom the de facto ruler of the realm) have to fight with each other in particularly nasty ways in private, and also plot strictly off-screen to bring down an isolated man through a farcical trial with no evidence.

They had Bran's word on it. That's all the evidence they needed.

How is Bran's word admissable in court? For anyone who has not watched the show, he is a crippled weirdo who says that he is a bird. His acceptance as as all-knowing seer or anything but a crazyperson has not been established in any way, people just take him at face value.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 22, 2019, 04:18:25 PM
Right, the court...with the judges and lawyers and laws passed by a Congress or Parliament that don't seem to exist in this world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 22, 2019, 05:20:23 PM
Indeed, the Lord (or Lady) of Winterfell is the law in Winterfell, as Ned Stark established in the very first episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 22, 2019, 05:37:59 PM
It is a bit of a stretch to say that there are no laws in this world just because the writers fail at world building.

Indeed, the Lord (or Lady) of Winterfell is the law in Winterfell, as Ned Stark established in the very first episode.

In that case, why hold a trial and have a convoluted plot? She could have had him killed at any point without advanced theatrics involving death threats and off-screen scheming.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 22, 2019, 05:42:13 PM
It is a bit of a stretch to say that there are no laws in this world just because the writers fail at world building.

Indeed, the Lord (or Lady) of Winterfell is the law in Winterfell, as Ned Stark established in the very first episode.

In that case, why hold a trial and have a convoluted plot? She could have had him killed at any point without advanced theatrics involving death threats and off-screen scheming.
It was a show trial.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 22, 2019, 05:43:59 PM
Regardless of any off screen plot. We as the audience had to endure Arya and Sansa sniping at each other for far longer than we should have with no apparent comraderie afterward except Arya saying Sansa is super smart.
Im not arguing about what may have happened off screen, Im pointing out what they have thought worth putting on screen.
The men get to clap each other on the backs and make jokes about which of them has had sex while the women dont really have connections built between each other based on shared experience. Even Brienne/Sansa  and Dany/Misandei are lady/servant relationships where a fondness has grown, but they are still formal as hell.

Its fine. But it is what it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 22, 2019, 06:29:22 PM
It is a bit of a stretch to say that there are no laws in this world just because the writers fail at world building.

Indeed, the Lord (or Lady) of Winterfell is the law in Winterfell, as Ned Stark established in the very first episode.

In that case, why hold a trial and have a convoluted plot? She could have had him killed at any point without advanced theatrics involving death threats and off-screen scheming.
It was a show trial.

Thinking about it, there does seem to be a major inconsistency in the Westros Judical system. Tyrion had his own show trial with witnesses and a judge, and then had the option to chose Trial by Combat and select a champion.

Where little finger was basically executed unceremoniously without any semblance of a trial.  Also, in the first season, Ned catches the member of the Nightswatch heading south and executes him with no trial.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 22, 2019, 06:30:17 PM
Every trial we've seen on this show has been a show trial.  Even Tyrion's second trial that had a tribunal for judgment and people to argue for/against was just for show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on April 23, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Episode 2 is up (https://imgur.com/a/dSYAaEb)

(https://i.imgur.com/qp7GnY6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dOPMwvZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 23, 2019, 06:32:17 AM
Episode 2 is up (https://imgur.com/a/dSYAaEb)

(https://i.imgur.com/qp7GnY6.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dOPMwvZ.jpg)
Lol! That took me a second!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 23, 2019, 08:37:43 AM
Arent't there a limit to who can be raised as a wight? It thought it was only those killed by a white walker or a wight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on April 23, 2019, 10:59:48 AM
I'm figuring Ep 3 is going to flip back to Kings Landing and maybe the Iron Islands. I figure we're not going to see the battle royale next ep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: wastrel on April 23, 2019, 11:47:43 AM
I'm figuring Ep 3 is going to flip back to Kings Landing and maybe the Iron Islands. I figure we're not going to see the battle royale next ep.
I think the next Ep is titled The Battle of Winterfell
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on April 23, 2019, 12:22:59 PM
Doh. I should have searched around for ep 3 previews. Yeah, looks like they won't shilly shally.
Title: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 23, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Arent't there a limit to who can be raised as a wight? It thought it was only those killed by a white walker or a wight.

The wildings and the Nights Watch routinely burned the bodies of anyone who died, so there's that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 24, 2019, 05:19:50 AM
I was wondering about the pacing of this season.

They decided to have a short season of 6 hour-long episodes, and they haven't exactly been running a tight ship. We are past one third of the season, and nothing has happened, a lot of time has been wasted and the buildup to the great battle did not exactly push the audience to the edge of their seats (though, falsely teasing the battle after episode 1 did not help with that). I am beginning to worry that they may not have a lot of story left to tell. The big battle will be the next episode. I don't think they'll lose and flee to the Iron Islands (somehow retaken by Yara and her three ships), because that would need more episodes or a miracle to resolve, as they also need to deal with Cersei. The story is so stripped down at this stage that no other complications could arise.

I predict that there will be a battle, a recuperation padding, a Cersei resolution and then a final episode for closure, with more padding.  Which would be a bit of a waste...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on April 24, 2019, 08:39:24 AM
Arent't there a limit to who can be raised as a wight? It thought it was only those killed by a white walker or a wight.

The willings and the Nights Watch routinely burned the bodies of anyone who died, so there's that.

Yeah, I thought as the Night King kind of moved his "front" then people who die in any capacity behind his lines turn into a wight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 24, 2019, 08:42:09 AM
I seem to remember people rising at the Wall way back in early seasons before the Night King was anywhere close.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 24, 2019, 08:50:10 AM
I seem to remember people rising at the Wall way back in early seasons before the Night King was anywhere close.

The one that attacked Jeor Mormont and Jon? That was a corpse found beyond the wall (probably killed by the Others) which was found and brought back. In Dance of Dragons, Sam quotes a book that says "anyone who falls against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls".



Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 29, 2019, 12:14:38 AM
I’m going to have to process this a little more, but my first impression is that at least five too few main characters died in this battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 12:51:22 AM
Not to mention an entire dothraki horde in 5 seconds. WOW!

I was having trouble wrapping my head around GOT after just seeing the Avengers than that happened.

I expected them to come ridding back as undead.

I was happy to see the red woman, that sure was a useful trick lighting up those swords even though it didn't seam to help.  Do you think that trick mite have been somewhat more useful to Stannis when fighting Ramsay?

I give this episode a 10/10
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on April 29, 2019, 12:51:49 AM
I was on Team White Walker so 0/10, worst episode ever

Real Talk: All I saw were a couple clips but the music and color palette were pretty cool
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 01:03:41 AM
After watching the directors commentary i'm glad they made the decision for Arya to take out the night king. I was surprised when it happened and did forget she ran off on a mission. I would have liked to see more of that weapon she had made but it was fitting that the dagger was used in the end. Im glad to know this was planned out in advance.

I cant imagine what that episode must have been like for the crew. Amazing work.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 29, 2019, 01:09:14 AM
Was that the first episode where no one got killed?

No, there have been at least 6 episodes (including todays) where no-one got killed

1x03 "Lord Snow"
2x08 "The Prince of Winterfell"
3x01 "Valar Dohaeris"
3x02 "Dark Wings, Dark Words"
3x07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"
8x02 "“A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”

According to this website:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/58593/is-there-an-episode-of-game-of-thrones-where-nobody-dies
Ok...

So was tonight’s episode the first where no one got laid ?


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 29, 2019, 01:19:54 AM
I have thought for a long time that Arya would kill the Night King, and kept waiting throughout the episode for her to head that way.  When she ran off after speaking with Melisandre, I was sure that’s where she was headed.

I’m starting to get pretty frustrated with the realization that we’re not going to get resolution to must of the big outstanding mysteries in the series (the Night King, the Lord of Light, the Prince that was Promised).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 01:39:33 AM
Was that the first episode where no one got killed?

No, there have been at least 6 episodes (including todays) where no-one got killed

1x03 "Lord Snow"
2x08 "The Prince of Winterfell"
3x01 "Valar Dohaeris"
3x02 "Dark Wings, Dark Words"
3x07 "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"
8x02 "“A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”

According to this website:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/58593/is-there-an-episode-of-game-of-thrones-where-nobody-dies
Ok...

So was tonight’s episode the first where no one got laid ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wait, your right, no nudity in this episode
9/10  >:D
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 01:57:20 AM
This was really well-made, but not quite there. It was too high fantasy, with no truly important, hard-hitting character deaths (apart from the Night's King) and plenty of plot armour for everyone.

Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

And who planned this battle? We are facing an army of the dead. We have a castle. Let's fight outside the walls and throw away most of our manpower, because it looks better that way.

I call bullshit on the raised Stark ancestors. That is not how wights work.

What I find weird is that the Others are set up to be the great antagonist of the Song of Ice and Fire (hence the name), and then they are disposed of in one episode, by a girl who saw The Last Jedi, so that we can concentrate on the real enemy: Cersei, Jack Sparrow's obnoxious cousin and *checks notes* Harry Strickland? Is this really the arc of the series? Are we going to end up with a good, just hereditary monarch as well to rule over the Seven Kingdoms?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 01:58:37 AM
I have thought for a long time that Arya would kill the Night King, and kept waiting throughout the episode for her to head that way.  When she ran off after speaking with Melisandre, I was sure that’s where she was headed.

I’m starting to get pretty frustrated with the realization that we’re not going to get resolution to must of the big outstanding mysteries in the series (the Night King, the Lord of Light, the Prince that was Promised).

What mystery of the Night King?  I thought he was explained pretty well.

Is it possible "the prince that was promised" was just the red woman's bullshit? They established how the priesthood is corrupt and how she was wrong.  There is some power coming from somewhere but that could be based on the artifacts they all seem to have or they are actually as old as the night king and other non humans on the planet.

 I doubt we get official answers on the lord of light but what specifics would you like answered?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 02:12:53 AM
This was really well-made, but not quite there. It was too high fantasy, with no truly important, hard-hitting character deaths (apart from the Night's King) and plenty of plot armour for everyone.

Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

And who planned this battle? We are facing an army of the dead. We have a castle. Let's fight outside the walls and throw away most of our manpower, because it looks better that way.

I call bullshit on the raised Stark ancestors. That is not how wights work.

What I find weird is that the Others are set up to be the great antagonist of the Song of Ice and Fire (hence the name), and then they are disposed of in one episode, by a girl who saw The Last Jedi, so that we can concentrate on the real enemy: Cersei, Jack Sparrow's obnoxious cousin and *checks notes* Harry Strickland? Is this really the arc of the series? Are we going to end up with a good, just hereditary monarch as well to rule over the Seven Kingdoms?

Loosing both Mormonts was pretty hard hitting and important as well as Theon and Melisandre.

I was hoping zombie Ned Stark was going to pop out and grab Sansa. LOL How do wights work? did you look that up in the Monster manual?  To me that looked more like a raise dead spell.

I was also surprised todays battle was not the final episode as opposed to dealing with Cersie. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 29, 2019, 02:25:19 AM
This was really well-made, but not quite there. It was too high fantasy, with no truly important, hard-hitting character deaths (apart from the Night's King) and plenty of plot armour for everyone.

Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

And who planned this battle? We are facing an army of the dead. We have a castle. Let's fight outside the walls and throw away most of our manpower, because it looks better that way.

I call bullshit on the raised Stark ancestors. That is not how wights work.

What I find weird is that the Others are set up to be the great antagonist of the Song of Ice and Fire (hence the name), and then they are disposed of in one episode, by a girl who saw The Last Jedi, so that we can concentrate on the real enemy: Cersei, Jack Sparrow's obnoxious cousin and *checks notes* Harry Strickland? Is this really the arc of the series? Are we going to end up with a good, just hereditary monarch as well to rule over the Seven Kingdoms?

Loosing both Mormonts was pretty hard hitting and important as well as Theon and Melisandre.

I was hoping zombie Ned Stark was going to pop out and grab Sansa. LOL How do wights work? did you look that up in the Monster manual?  To me that looked more like a raise dead spell.

I was also surprised todays battle was not the final episode as opposed to dealing with Cersie.
Cersei is still on Arya’s list. The white king was never on her list


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 02:39:26 AM
This was really well-made, but not quite there. It was too high fantasy, with no truly important, hard-hitting character deaths (apart from the Night's King) and plenty of plot armour for everyone.

Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

And who planned this battle? We are facing an army of the dead. We have a castle. Let's fight outside the walls and throw away most of our manpower, because it looks better that way.

I call bullshit on the raised Stark ancestors. That is not how wights work.

What I find weird is that the Others are set up to be the great antagonist of the Song of Ice and Fire (hence the name), and then they are disposed of in one episode, by a girl who saw The Last Jedi, so that we can concentrate on the real enemy: Cersei, Jack Sparrow's obnoxious cousin and *checks notes* Harry Strickland? Is this really the arc of the series? Are we going to end up with a good, just hereditary monarch as well to rule over the Seven Kingdoms?

Loosing both Mormonts was pretty hard hitting and important as well as Theon and Melisandre.

I was hoping zombie Ned Stark was going to pop out and grab Sansa. LOL How do wights work? did you look that up in the Monster manual?  To me that looked more like a raise dead spell.

I was also surprised todays battle was not the final episode as opposed to dealing with Cersie.

Lyanna was never all that important and Jorah was pointess at this stage. They weren't main characters by any stretch.

Wights can only be made from people who died at the hands of the Others. That is how it works in this world. None of the Starks in the crypt have even seen a White Walker ot a wight.

As for Ned, I am pretty sure his bones got lost somewhere on the way from King's Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 04:16:42 AM
I just realised, did they forget about Pod?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 29, 2019, 06:49:38 AM
Cersei is still on Arya’s list. The white king was never on her list

The list hasn't been mentioned on the show for a while. Given the chance she would still kill Cersei and Ilyn Payne (The man who chopped off Ned's head)

There were 3 people who had been on her list at Winterfell. 2 she helped (The Hound and Beric) and Melisandre. All had slipped off her list for various reasons.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on April 29, 2019, 07:01:33 AM
Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

I don't know if this is technically a spoiler so ....

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on April 29, 2019, 08:17:02 AM
I missed Arya dropped the dagger into her other hand and stabbed the Night King. I saw that as it landing in Bran's hand and he stuck him. I'll have to watch that again. You'd think they'd have pots of flaming oil ready to repel wights. And why not some dragon glass spikes along the walls?

Arya's much vaunted weapon she had made didn't have much story value. I figured she was going to use that against the Night King. I didn't imagine her killing him. But I figured it would foil his plans. I'm glad they wrapped that up.

I'm sorry most, if not all, of the dothraki were wiped out. Did Jon's dragon die too? I couldn't tell. I does seem they're down to 1 dragon to take on Cersei. That may be enough, of course. But after that battle her dragon may be like "check please!" and out of the fight.

I sure hope the series ends with a new clutch of dragon eggs having been laid by one of the dragons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 08:43:18 AM
Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?

I don't know if this is technically a spoiler so ....

(click to show/hide)
I think we can be spoilerful in this thread.

I missed this detail. What I don't understand, if he survives, is the point of having Ghost? Like, he has been completely absent last season and was in the background for a couple of seconds this one. I get it that they need the CGI budget for dragons, but they could have just had the good boy killed during the Castle Black mutiny and get it over with, instead they are just ignoring him.

As for the dragon, there are two dragons in the preview, one of the markedly green therefore both survived the battle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on April 29, 2019, 09:01:12 AM
Good catch about Ghost. Maybe Jon sent him away having info from Bran that his own dog didn't survive the wights.

Okay good to know there are still two dragons left. Maybe Jon's dragon is employed in the fight. Gets killed with a ballista. And then Drogon comes at the 11th hour and saves the battle. That's my prediction.

Also. Tyran marries Denarys and they rule in King's Landing (uniting two great house in the south). Jon trades down and remains a king or prince of the north.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: moj on April 29, 2019, 09:40:21 AM
I had a really hard time seeing anything from last nights show. I'm really annoyed they made everything that dark and hard to see. I may try again on a different TV. I get what they where trying to capture but just think it was over done.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 09:45:44 AM
Good catch about Ghost. Maybe Jon sent him away having info from Bran that his own dog didn't survive the wights.

The last time we saw Ghost in the episode was when he ran into battle with the Dothraki. Jon did not even meet with him, as he was on a dragon.

Also. Tyran marries Denarys and they rule in King's Landing (uniting two great house in the south). Jon trades down and remains a king or prince of the north.

I doubt it. Tyrion is not the heir of anything and has no value as the queen's consort. I fear, after the teasing in this episode, that he will re-marry Sansa, which would be just repulsive. Dany will either end up with Jon, or at least one of them will die. They are the designated love interests, despite the lack of chemistry.

Dany is also a problematic ruler, as she cannot bear any children, therefore her line will end with her, which is a recipe for disaster.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 29, 2019, 10:57:29 AM
10/10 for me. Arya has been my favorite character in the series since the first episode. (She reminded me of my daughter, but Arya is more murdery, of course)

I didn’t realize just how emotionally vested in her character I have become until last night.

Team Arya, all the way!


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 29, 2019, 11:59:23 AM
Cersei is still on Arya’s list. The white king was never on her list

The list hasn't been mentioned on the show for a while. Given the chance she would still kill Cersei and Ilyn Payne (The man who chopped off Ned's head)

There were 3 people who had been on her list at Winterfell. 2 she helped (The Hound and Beric) and Melisandre. All had slipped off her list for various reasons.
They just mentioned it in the last episode and I think the one before that.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 29, 2019, 01:18:03 PM
I had a really hard time seeing anything from last nights show. I'm really annoyed they made everything that dark and hard to see. I may try again on a different TV. I get what they where trying to capture but just think it was over done.
Same.


I dont think it outdoes the battle of the bastards tbh. I loved that it was Arya and I was worried the night king was going to kill her for a moment.

It was a bit hard to watch SO many bad decisions that made zero tactical sense just for the visuals. One or two are fine but jesus....
More main characters should have died. It was so annoying to see them at the front of every charge but surviving every impossible situation for basically no reason.
Send Arya to kings landing next episode and lets just finish it all early.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on April 29, 2019, 01:42:11 PM
Same.

(https://i.imgur.com/BakGZLU.png)

Quote
More main characters should have died. It was so annoying to see them at the front of every charge but surviving every impossible situation for basically no reason.

The jarring change in writing style is actually why I stopped watching.

I just googled, "gardener vs architect writing," and appropriately enough, I found a quote from Martin himself:
Quote
“I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they're going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there's going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don't know how many branches it's going to have, they find out as it grows. And I'm much more a gardener than an architect.”

Before they ran out of book, the writing was exemplary of the gardener approach.  It was a saga of realpolitik. No one had plot armor. The 'rules' the world operated under made for interesting and novel plots with very interesting characters.

After they ran out of book, it lost my hook.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on April 29, 2019, 02:08:47 PM
It was a little dark for me in places, but not too bad.  As soon as I realized the attack was happening during the night, I turned off the lights in the living room and it all worked out.  I would have liked it a little brighter.  My computer monitor is crisper than my living room TV so I might re-watch it in there one day this week just to see if there was a difference.


The biggest problems I had were with the aerial battle scenes after the storm was called in.  I figured it didn't really matter much if I couldn't see well, none of the characters could either.


There were a couple of breathtaking visuals that caught my eye.  The Dothraki charge.  The couple of times the dragons burst out of the cloud cover into the moonlight. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on April 29, 2019, 02:12:29 PM
I think the decline started way before that, around Season 5. That is when they really started to make shit up and make all kinds of weird changes and ignoring world building or consistent characterisation
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 29, 2019, 03:41:55 PM
My prediction, the future baby of Arya and Gendry sits on the throne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on April 29, 2019, 04:40:55 PM
My prediction, the future baby of Arya and Gendry sits on the throne.

That will be in the second season of the spinoff "Arya Loves Genrdry"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Belgarath on April 29, 2019, 05:11:16 PM

Though, is Ghost dead, along with all the Dothraki in the world?



Ghost isn't dead.  We saw him for just a brief second in the teaser for the next episode.  He was in the scene where they were burning the dead, lined up outside Winterfell.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 30, 2019, 08:41:26 AM
It was way to dark for me throughout, and it could not be fixed with brightness and contrast because of the compression artifacts in the blacks. Current compression algorithms just aren't good at preserving subtle gradations in such dark colors, so the whole thing comes out muddy.  I wonder if anyone reviewed it with compression while editing; if not, it's a bad oversight since the primary modes in which most people will consume the show are all compressed to one extent or another.

What mystery of the Night King?  I thought he was explained pretty well.

What did he need Craster's sons for?  Why did he retreat thousands of years ago?  Why does he want to destroy humanity?  What's he been doing for the last several thousand years?  What's the point of the White Walkers? What were the symbols for? Etc.

Quote
Is it possible "the prince that was promised" was just the red woman's bullshit? They established how the priesthood is corrupt and how she was wrong.  There is some power coming from somewhere but that could be based on the artifacts they all seem to have or they are actually as old as the night king and other non humans on the planet.

Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised; whatever you want to call him, he transcends cultures, is a subject of multiple prophecies, and very much seems real and important throughout the story. In any case, the subject requires resolution.

Quote
I doubt we get official answers on the lord of light but what specifics would you like answered?

Literally anything.

My prediction, the future baby of Arya and Gendry sits on the throne.

Eww.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: moj on April 30, 2019, 09:02:57 AM
I had watched Sunday night upstairs in the bedroom and it was to dark to see much of anything. I watched in the dark and played with screen settings and still most of it was unwatchable. We do wirelessly stream from it from the living room to avoid paying for a second cable box and think the stream rate/compression or something might have been part if it. I watched again last night downstairs in the living room and could actually see what was happening but that TV is hardwired to the box.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 30, 2019, 09:39:46 AM
I had watched Sunday night upstairs in the bedroom and it was to dark to see much of anything. I watched in the dark and played with screen settings and still most of it was unwatchable. We do wirelessly stream from it from the living room to avoid paying for a second cable box and think the stream rate/compression or something might have been part if it. I watched again last night downstairs in the living room and could actually see what was happening but that TV is hardwired to the box.

I'm streaming directly on a AppleTV 4K with a 200mbps connection. I can be pretty confident that any loss was on HBO's end. I wonder if it's possible that HBO wasn't able to handle full-resolution streaming to all the people who were trying to watch it simultaneously and had to degrade the stream.  I hadn't considered that, but it seems possible.  I should check it out again to compare.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 30, 2019, 03:34:08 PM
the same brightness setting on two tvs can vary greatly

I agree it was dark but not too bad in a dim room with a properly configured TV, I also have a back light reflecting the wall behind my screen which I think makes the screen easier to see when I dim it to an orange or red glow, not sure why that works I thought it would be distracting but its not.

Make sure motion smoothing is off as well as any automatic brightness controls based on your environment.

You cant completely blame it on TVs though, Movie set memes is hammering this pretty hard

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58763413_2485782198100569_4254618114068578304_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=4a7a21efb4d26ff0def2cd3318b142e0&oe=5D38A1EC)

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58711524_2485228371489285_8825973448988688384_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=dd514983acf13dd09aecd8ee1a050757&oe=5D6390A7)

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/58858043_2366136886978404_81590080677871616_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=f7d05279632f8e52e43dbf9de78ce33a&oe=5D6A5B42)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 30, 2019, 05:02:00 PM
CaptainVideo: the problem isn't just that it's dark, it's the compression artifacts that creates. No amount of fiddling with my TV set is going to replace picture information or brightness and color information that just isn't there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 30, 2019, 05:51:48 PM
There is still time for them to answer questions about the night king, I really hope they do so because if the last 3 episodes are about Cercei/Dany I will be very unhappy.

Also- Literally all the night king had to do was have his zombies hold Bran once everyone else was dead. He was up against seemingly the worlds worst military strategists (seriously, a fucking tween was telling people which walls to defend etc. Its fine for someone young to be confident and wise, why are they asking me to believe she is somehow a great military commander too? But that giant kill was badass.) and almost all of them were dead.
To spend thousands of years sitting in the snow plotting and then fail so unbelievably hard....there really needed to be more from his POV in previous seasons if thats how this was going to go.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: wastrel on April 30, 2019, 06:46:12 PM
I don't think that lore will be explored in this series any more.  I think they will leave that to the planned spin-offs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on April 30, 2019, 07:02:49 PM
Talking it through with a friend, I realised I actually hate this show.
Im only hanging around for Aryas badass moments once a season (seriously, take her out of that episode and whats left?) And to see the hound kill the mountain.
Im not quite sure when this happened but probably around the time it started to deviate from the books for fan service and ignore time and space?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on April 30, 2019, 10:04:39 PM
I actually have to amend my previous complaints about artifacts: the issue is actually HBO Go’s encoding or bandwidth.  I’ve just been rewatching in my DirecTV Now app, and things that were muddy messes on HBO are gorgeous there.  One place where it really stood out was in the scene with Jon and Dany on the hill overlooking the battlefield; what was a murky blur on HBO Go is a beautiful clouded sky on DirecTV.

In my opinion it’s still too dark, and I have to turn the brightness up too high on my phone, which turns the blacks gray.  But at least I can then see what they were going for.  I’ll give it a try later with DirectTV Now on my AppleTV.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on April 30, 2019, 11:04:55 PM
I'm watching on HBO Now on roku over a 1gb connection, it perfectly clean for me.  ;D

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 01, 2019, 12:15:54 AM
I'm watching on HBO Now on roku over a 1gb connection, it perfectly clean for me.  ;D

I’m kinda doubting that your 1gb connection is functionally different from my 200mb one for the purposes of streaming HBO. I’m guessing that it’s being served at a bit rate of about 5mbps.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 01, 2019, 12:57:47 AM
I'm watching on HBO Now on roku over a 1gb connection, it perfectly clean for me.  ;D

I’m kinda doubting that your 1gb connection is functionally different from my 200mb one for the purposes of streaming HBO. I’m guessing that it’s being served at a bit rate of about 5mbps.

I don't care, I'm still going to brag about it  :P
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 01, 2019, 01:09:44 AM
hmm, this article claims amazon streams it a 10 mbs rather than the 5 from HBO. Now I want to try amazon although I saw no pixelation or artifacting with HBO Now and I would notice something like that without even looking for it.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/29/18522550/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-battle-of-winterfell-long-night-fix-tv-settings-darkness

Quote
I’ve seen reports that Amazon, which sells HBO service for $15 per month through Prime Video, tends to stream Game of Thrones at around 10Mbps, while HBO Now and HBO Go output the show at closer to 5Mbps. That difference might seem small, but it’s significant. Amazon’s version of Game of Thrones is less likely to show distracting pixelation or macro-blocking. I’ve asked both companies for specifics around their Game of Thrones presentation. But there’s a consensus among cord-cutting nerds on Reddit that Amazon is tops right now.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 01, 2019, 01:18:57 AM
Out of curiosity I opened the HBO Now app in my web browser on my computer, i do see artifacting and crappy encoding. When I compare to the TV its gone. Is the HBO app on the Roku better at than the computer?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 01, 2019, 08:13:12 AM
My HBO account is tied to my Hulu account.  So, I watched it through Hulu/HBO via my Roku.  I get about 60 megs down on average on my internet connection...no actual idea what my older roku stick gets.  It looked fine through most of it on my TV.  There were a few parts in the dark chaos that my TV couldn't keep up and I saw some artifacting...but my TV wasn't top end when I bought it 4+ years ago so it's not exactly screaming now.  Other than a few hiccups that I expected it was fine.  When there was light, there were some gorgeous shots in that episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 01, 2019, 08:33:48 AM
What I'm reading suggests that HBO Now/Go streams at an average bitrate of about 5mbps, while Amazon/Hulu/DirecTV Now all stream in the 9-10mbps range.  Last night I did a test of both on my phone and found the HBO Go version blurry and full of artifacts while the DirecTV Now version was significantly better.  It would appear that HBO, which uses MLB Advanced Media as its backend, is just serving sub-par quality video.

I have no idea what differs between your Roku and phone or between it and my AppleTV; I would guess it's doing some processing that you're not aware of.  I also bet that if you compared one of the higher-bitrate alternatives even to your Roku stream you'd see the difference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on May 01, 2019, 09:15:14 AM
What's the status of Dorne? The Red Woman has that prophecy about the prince who is promised. I noticed Dorne is ruled by a prince. Is it possible it's a reference to Dorne's prince saving the day against Circe? Or my theory is Jon rules in the North as a Prince with Dany ruling in the south.

And why did they make their stand at Winterfell? Isn't The Eyrie a way more defensible place?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 01, 2019, 09:40:57 AM
If your goal is to survive a siege as long as possible (before ultimately starving), probably. Then again, Viserion could probably slag the Eyrie anyway...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 01, 2019, 12:39:41 PM
Oh man... I'd been looking for the old Game of Thrones threads and didn't see this one until now...

All in all, this season is what I've come to expect from the show; good actors, excellent directors, top notch visuals and CG, beautiful music, and plenty of wonderful moments... all in service of a boring and straight-forward story that embraces ALL of the tropes this show got famous for subverting.  At this point, I'm mainly watching because I'm too invested not to and because despite the terrible mangling of all that was good about this show's story, they still deliver some of the best moments of any show.  Last season was awash with stupidity but the Battle of the Bastards was a master class in great film-making.

I think this last episode really hit home for me just how conventional and bland the showrunner's vision is for the endgame of the show and just how silly it's been for all us viewers to continue theorizing about all the ways the show will surprise and devastate us.  With the Battle of Winterfell, they had a real opportunity to have one last go at upending the hero's narrative momentum like they did with Ned's beheading, the Red Wedding, and Jon's stabbing and then looking at what's left and figure out what the new narrative is.  Save for a few characters, they could have killed off literally anyone and still have enough to work with to keep us all invested.  Instead, they were lazy and just decided to kill only the characters who have done all they were going to do anyways.  I'm also left feeling totally deflated at how the Others were finally defeated; not Arya killing the Night King specifically (that moment was fantastic), but at how it's just done.  These guys have been touted as the REAL enemy since literally the first scene of the series and in the last season, the main plot point was how all this squabbling over the throne was pointless in the face of the Others, but in one episode... BOOM.  The entire conflict is waged and won and we are now left with 3 episodes of squabbling over the unimportant throne. 

On top of that, Cersei has devolved into just a cartoonish villain, Euron is just the absolute worst and may actually top what they did to Doran for worst translation of a character from the books to the show.  I can't stand the thought that the battle between them and Jon and Dany is going to be given more gravity and time than the battle against army of the dead...  That said, the reason it is going to be given more attention is the same reason I feel so deflated by the Others' defeat; we understand Cersei and her motivations and character, but we didn't know anything about the Night King until an episode ago where Bran just lays it out in 2 sentences.  I'm not saying Cersei should have been ignored, but the Night King definitely shouldn't have been.  Could have at least had some more Bran time-travelling to explore it some more and give him something to do besides bore me to death.

The funny thing about the show now is that I'm realizing, while I still care about the characters I am completely uninterested in their goals.  I don't care anymore who sits on the iron throne (who are we kidding? It will be Jon because the show doesn't have the balls not to have it's main, male protagonist win.), don't really care about who marries who, don't really care about which person gets to kill Cersei and Euron.  About the only thing I'm seriously looking forward to now is Clegane-Bowl.

Oh, and I almost forgot in reference to an earlier complaint about Jon's actual given name; I can't remember if it's in the books or the show too, but IIRC there was a prophecy that said the Prince that was Promised would be named Aegon and Rhagar was obsessed with fulfilling the prophecy and was convinced his child would be that prince.  That's why he named both his boys Aegon.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 01, 2019, 01:20:27 PM

Save for a few characters, they could have killed off literally anyone and still have enough to work with to keep us all invested. 

Well, there is a trope in literature that the main characters are the ones who survive all the challenges and live to tell their stories, or those who are close to them.
Quote


Quote
Instead, they were lazy and just decided to kill only the characters who have done all they were going to do anyways.

By definition, that's pretty much the way of the world (both this one, and in Westeros, with a few exceptions).


Quote
On top of that, Cersei has devolved into just a cartoonish villain, Euron is just the absolute worst and may actually top what they did to Doran for worst translation of a character from the books to the show.  I can't stand the thought that the battle between them and Jon and Dany is going to be given more gravity and time than the battle against army of the dead...  That said, the reason it is going to be given more attention is the same reason I feel so deflated by the Others' defeat; we understand Cersei and her motivations and character, but we didn't know anything about the Night King until an episode ago where Bran just lays it out in 2 sentences.  I'm not saying Cersei should have been ignored, but the Night King definitely shouldn't have been.  Could have at least had some more Bran time-travelling to explore it some more and give him something to do besides bore me to death.

With three episodes left, I would not be surprised if Cersei isn't dealt with in the 7th episode, and the next battle is among the victors over the throne.

 
Quote

Oh, and I almost forgot in reference to an earlier complaint about Jon's actual given name; I can't remember if it's in the books or the show too, but IIRC there was a prophecy that said the Prince that was Promised would be named Aegon and Rhagar was obsessed with fulfilling the prophecy and was convinced his child would be that prince.  That's why he named both his boys Aegon.

It's pretty clear now, at least in the show, that the "prince" (who they established could be a princess) is Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 01, 2019, 01:46:16 PM
Personally, I'm still hopeful they will have Sansa on the throne before it's all over.  I really hated her character for seasons, and over the years she has turned into the one person on this show worthy of the throne.


Also, I want to see the actors performance during Cercei's death at the hand of Jamie.  It was prophesied that her brother would kill her, she always assumed it would be Tyrion; but in my mind, it has to be Jamie.


Also also, yeah, CleganeBowl.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on May 01, 2019, 02:45:51 PM

Also, I want to see the actors performance during Cercei's death at the hand of Jamie.  It was prophesied that her brother would kill her, she always assumed it would be Tyrion; but in my mind, it has to be Jamie.


Also also, yeah, CleganeBowl.

I feel that Jamie will become the Queenslayer as well. And afterwards I would love to see him throw away his sword, totally renouncing his life as a knight, a Lannister, a Lord, everything. The final shot of Jamie should be him walking away into the sunset, with the implication that he's going to start a new simple life as a farmer, merchant, tavern keeper, anything. But he is DONE with the nobility and all it's bullshit. He's had enough. An attitude similar to that of the Hound.

In a lesser show he would share that new life with Brienne. But that's not this show. And I don't think Brienne's gonna survive the series, anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: moj on May 01, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
I have Cercei and Sansa in GOT fantasy league and hope the last few shows are nothing but them kill/fucking/eating everything in all possible ways while making all the snappy one liners. So many points...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on May 01, 2019, 02:59:33 PM
It's amazing to me how much the structure of this show echoes that of Babylon 5!

Both shows have ancient enemies returning after thousands of years in accordance with prophecy (okay, that's a standard genre trope, I know). The Shadows/Night King.

In both shows there is a concurrent civil war, President Clark/Cersei. In both shows the ancient enemy is defeated first, with the internal war dealt with in subsequent episodes.

In both shows the lead character (John/Jon!) dies and is resurrected to become the leader of uniting forces against the enemy.

There are more similarities. Both GRRM and B5's JMS acknowledge the influence of Tolkien. And both worked together on the 1980's CBS version of Twilight Zone. I wonder what they talked about together on lunch breaks and how much those discussions shaped their subsequent works....
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on May 02, 2019, 08:36:29 AM
Very interesting observation, Paul. I've read that Martin has cited the Amber series as a huge influence. But that's mostly about the house infighting and power battles for a throne. Wouldn't B5 and GOT also map onto LotR?

Ancient enemy returns (Sauron)
Civil war (say Gandalf vs Saurman)
Lead character comes back from the dead and unites forces (Gandalf)

Granted the civil war (Saurman) was put down first before the defeat of the ancient evil.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 02, 2019, 10:04:42 AM
I've been thinking about what the minimum changes are that could be made to make me more satisfied with the episode. I think that if Jamie had died defending Brienne and Jon had had a clear active role in holding off the dragon so that Arya could get at the Night King (maybe the two get pinned down together and briefly agree to a strategy), I would have been satisfied.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 02, 2019, 11:30:25 AM
For me, I think I just wanted this episode to have serious consequences for where the story goes from here.  As it is, we lost only ancillary characters (at this point at least) and a bunch of no names whose deaths I'm sure will have no impact on the amount of troops Dany and Jon have during the next battle if the show decides they need an equal army to Cersei.  I also wanted to understand the Night King more, but that would have been better served in the lead up to this episode.  As it is, the unstoppable army of the dead the show has been saying is the biggest threat to ever face Westeros, who will usher in the LONG Night... lasted one night at relatively little cost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 02, 2019, 11:41:36 AM
I believe there were five characters lost whom I recognized. One was a major character. Some I’m  not sure of.

The biggest consequence will be the loss of significant numbers of fighting forces, especially the unsullied and Dothraki.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 02, 2019, 11:45:18 AM
On the subject of shitty military strategy...why are they going after Cersei?  I mean, I know that the goal is to get her off the throne, and she does need to be taken off the throne.  But she's paying the Golden Company from borrowed funds.  Jamie knows this.  Tyrion and Jamie both know that she doesn't have much income at all to pay off those loans.  Why march now?  Sit back, send ravens to watch and when the Golden Company packs up their bags (and/or overthrows Cersei themselves at the behest of the Iron Bank), then start marching.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: PANTS! on May 02, 2019, 12:17:23 PM
I think they aired the eps out of order.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on May 02, 2019, 02:19:29 PM

The biggest consequence will be the loss of significant numbers of fighting forces, especially the unsullied and Dothraki.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If Cersei were half as smart as she thinks she is, she would have had scouts* observing Winterfell and the battle from afar (obviously from the Southern front away from White Walkers). As soon as dawn comes up after the battle and those scouts see how decimated the Dragon Queen's forces are, they would send ravens to Kings Landings informing her. Then Cersei should march the Golden Company and the Lannister Army as quick as the devil up the King's Road and hit Winterfell before they have any time to recover. War over. Victory to the Lioness.

 *hmmm, come to think of it, where was Bronn? Maybe I've on to something here...….
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 03, 2019, 05:01:37 AM

The biggest consequence will be the loss of significant numbers of fighting forces, especially the unsullied and Dothraki.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If Cersei were half as smart as she thinks she is, she would have had scouts* observing Winterfell and the battle from afar (obviously from the Southern front away from White Walkers). As soon as dawn comes up after the battle and those scouts see how decimated the Dragon Queen's forces are, they would send ravens to Kings Landings informing her. Then Cersei should march the Golden Company and the Lannister Army as quick as the devil up the King's Road and hit Winterfell before they have any time to recover. War over. Victory to the Lioness.

 *hmmm, come to think of it, where was Bronn? Maybe I've on to something here...….

There are still two dragons at play.

Also, the show has a tendency to conjure up non-existing armies (for example, the Lannister army should be, by now, completely depleted), so this plan could easily fail.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 03, 2019, 05:17:25 AM
I dont think the scouting range of medieval armies were quite that long? Spies maybe? Sending the odd raven or message back with merchants etc?

Also, we know that Cercei is not half as smart as she thinks she is and is completely out of her depth in military matters.
If she had that kind of intelligence network then they wouldnt have had to bring a zombie in a box to kings landing in the first place.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 03, 2019, 05:29:28 AM
They have teleporters on the show, don't forget about that.

Cersei now has a competent general, the leader of the Golden Company, so that should be fine. Unless they somehow swerve into book mode and go rogue (without the fake? Targ, because they can't resolve THAT mess in three episodes), taking castles and all, maybe switch sides to Dany. After all, Cersei has no money beyond a loan while her opponent is still ruling the greatest city state of Slaver's Bay, the Dothraki Empire, Dragonstone, Casterly Rock and the North and should be technically in charge of the Vale as well (did I miss anything?).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on May 03, 2019, 06:14:05 AM

The biggest consequence will be the loss of significant numbers of fighting forces, especially the unsullied and Dothraki.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If Cersei were half as smart as she thinks she is, she would have had scouts* observing Winterfell and the battle from afar (obviously from the Southern front away from White Walkers). As soon as dawn comes up after the battle and those scouts see how decimated the Dragon Queen's forces are, they would send ravens to Kings Landings informing her. Then Cersei should march the Golden Company and the Lannister Army as quick as the devil up the King's Road and hit Winterfell before they have any time to recover. War over. Victory to the Lioness.

 *hmmm, come to think of it, where was Bronn? Maybe I've on to something here...….

There are still two dragons at play.

Also, the show has a tendency to conjure up non-existing armies (for example, the Lannister army should be, by now, completely depleted), so this plan could easily fail.

One and a half dragons. The one the dead swarmed has to be seriously injured. Perhaps not able to fly long distance? How long does it take a dragon to heal?

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 03, 2019, 06:18:54 AM

The biggest consequence will be the loss of significant numbers of fighting forces, especially the unsullied and Dothraki.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If Cersei were half as smart as she thinks she is, she would have had scouts* observing Winterfell and the battle from afar (obviously from the Southern front away from White Walkers). As soon as dawn comes up after the battle and those scouts see how decimated the Dragon Queen's forces are, they would send ravens to Kings Landings informing her. Then Cersei should march the Golden Company and the Lannister Army as quick as the devil up the King's Road and hit Winterfell before they have any time to recover. War over. Victory to the Lioness.

 *hmmm, come to think of it, where was Bronn? Maybe I've on to something here...….

There are still two dragons at play.

Also, the show has a tendency to conjure up non-existing armies (for example, the Lannister army should be, by now, completely depleted), so this plan could easily fail.

One and a half dragons. The one the dead swarmed has to be seriously injured. Perhaps not able to fly long distance? How long does it take a dragon to heal?

It takes as much time as the plot needs.

Just like how the hardness of dragon scales vs some puny zombies is variable based on the plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 03, 2019, 10:48:31 AM
I believe there were five characters lost whom I recognized. One was a major character. Some I’m  not sure of.

Make that six.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 03, 2019, 10:54:59 AM
I would argue that for the balance of the show both Theon and Jorah were pretty major characters.


I saw a few articles on this praising the show for being subversive in letting a "Minor Character" kill the Night King.  Yeah, Arya's a minor character  ::)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on May 03, 2019, 12:19:01 PM
Minor character = female character and it should have been Jon?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 03, 2019, 12:37:10 PM
I would argue that for the balance of the show both Theon and Jorah were pretty major characters.

They were, but what are the consequences of them dying now, besides other, more consequential characters being sad?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 03, 2019, 01:23:23 PM
I would argue that for the balance of the show both Theon and Jorah were pretty major characters.

They were, but what are the consequences of them dying now, besides other, more consequential characters being sad?
Dany is more vulnerable and weaker without Jorah.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 03, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Jorah should have been dead long ago.  Theon died where his character arc said he should have.  It could be argued that Brianne and/or Grey Worm should have died based on the narrative position they found themselves in for this battle. 


Going into this episode there were five characters I assumed would survive.  Arya (I had predicted her killing the Night King), Jamie (needs to confront his sister), The Hound (needs to confront his brother), Dany and Jon (why set up the conflict between the two if you aren't going to pay it off later).  I expected more deaths, but the ones we got don't surprise me really. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 03, 2019, 01:55:16 PM
For me, this was less about wanting characters to die and more about this being the last moment for the show to subvert our expectations one last time, and then do what it got famous for doing; figure out how to pick up the pieces in narratively satisfying way.  The lack of any death of consequence in an episode primed to simply lay waste to everyone we care about makes me pretty sure the remainder of the series is going to play it safe and just tell the story we all expect.  The fact they faked out of killing literally EVERY major character in Winterfell, some multiple times, just to make us clutch our pearls makes me almost certain the series will end in a disappointing mess...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 03, 2019, 02:07:38 PM
However, as far as I can tell, it was everyone's expectation that this would be a bloodbath of beloved characters.  My wife and I were discussing it before the episode started.  We had just finished the last season of The Magicians on Friday night, just went to see Endgame on Saturday.  She was saying she was going to have to buy stock in Kleenex if the GoT episode was what she expected.  We just knew we were going to lose Brianne and Theon and Davos and Jorah and Sam and Ghost and Grey Worm...


So by that definition, this episode did subvert our expectations. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 03, 2019, 02:16:49 PM
Well, my definition was more of killing someone, or multiple someones, we didn't expect to die.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 03, 2019, 02:40:58 PM
Since that didn't happen, your expectations were subverted.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 03, 2019, 03:06:11 PM
I would be fine with so many main characters surviving if they hadn't put all of them in mortal peril and shown so many of them in clearly fatal situations.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Ron Obvious on May 03, 2019, 03:27:43 PM
I felt very dissatisfied with the latest episode. Actually, since the writers ran out of book material it's jumped the shark.

I can't say I feel as strong about it as this guy, but I have to admit I agree with just about everything he says:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7zy1PTMp0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7zy1PTMp0)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Guillermo on May 03, 2019, 04:15:16 PM
I found the last episode quite enjoyable. My complaints ran on it being hideously dark and would have liked bigger names to have died.

I see a lot of people complaining that they beat the Night King too quickly/easily. I don't agree with that. Complaints about the fight taking one episode seem absurd to me. And people complaining about Jon not fighting the night king boo hoo.

I don't think those are objective criticisms of the episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 03, 2019, 04:32:29 PM
I would be fine with so many main characters surviving if they hadn't put all of them in mortal peril and shown so many of them in clearly fatal situations.

Yeah, like Jorah Mormont riding out into the night with the suicide charge of the Dothraki and surviving because he was the only (white) dude who had a name.

When was the last time we saw an actual Dothraki character on the show? Like five seasons ago?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Ron Obvious on May 03, 2019, 04:33:06 PM
The tactics of the Winterfell defenders were absolutely moronic. Remember that -until the Red Witch showed up unexpectedly to fire the anraks(?) - they were going to send the Dothraki cavalry charging headlong at the undead hordes with weapons that couldn't even harm them.  I know very little about mediaeval battle tactics, but even I realised this episode was absurd. Giving up the defensive advantage of the castle to charge the enemy in the open is something Robert Baratheon might have done. Oh, and they didn't even have boiling pitch to pour onto the undead climbing the castle walls? Also, what poor use of your air power. Why didn't dragonfire harm the Night King?

Remember also that every Dothraki and unsullied life thrown away for nothing is going to add to the enemy's strengths.

You're facing an enemy who can raise the dead, and it doesn't occur to you that hiding in a crypt is not a good idea?

And that's just for starters.  The more I think about this episode, the more ridiculous I think it is.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 03, 2019, 08:49:44 PM
One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 03, 2019, 09:09:04 PM
One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.
Yep.
I fucking love that Greyworm wore his helmet!
Military professionalism gets me hot!!

The common answer to the battle plan is that the show needed spectacle, blahblahblah.
But...just write a brief contrivance as to why they had to go out and face them. The writers just arent trying, other than doing what the fans most want to see and what they least expect (as long as it doesnt conflict with what they want to see).

So much of what has been set up has been wasted too. Like man made dragon fire and making use of the dothraki (instead of just wasting them all on a meat grinder). The dothraki have not had any development as characters, we didnt get to see their adjustment to the cold weather or thoughts on the seven kingdoms or even their role in the battle even though they all rode knowingly to their death.
There wasnt one rider who wasnt 100% sold on their battle philosophy and had some doubts?
Instead, the designated white leader is the only one to come back and I get some plucky orphan scene last episode that didnt pay off in any way.

But yes. At least Dany had time to get her winter wardrobe made before flying north on a moments notice last season to save Jon (and then having a suitable change of clothes for the ocean crossing).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 03, 2019, 09:34:58 PM
It was idiotic.  However, I did like the tension of watching the lighted swords slowly blinking out in the distance as it all got quiet.  Also, the shot from the ridge where Dany/Jon were watching while they charged was a beaut.  Didn't make any goddamn sense at all, but it was pretty.




I'm a software engineer.  My wife is a nurse.  We were study buddies through our educations.  If we were particularly caring about how realistic TV shows were, we couldn't watch TV.  I expect that show creators in general don't know shit about shit so I'm not often disappointed.  I can only see so many "hacking" scenes or shitty needle use before I just give up.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 03, 2019, 09:44:04 PM
One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.
They didn't have enough space inside the walls of Winterfell for all of them.

They had a lot of dragon glass, but not that much.


Quote

But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

Is this Monday morning quarterbacking? We saw how the battle unfolded, now we can say "you should have done x instead of  y"

Quote
And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

You realize she has to fly, right and armor is heavy.  She never intended to fight on the ground.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 04, 2019, 08:11:14 AM
It was idiotic.  However, I did like the tension of watching the lighted swords slowly blinking out in the distance as it all got quiet.  Also, the shot from the ridge where Dany/Jon were watching while they charged was a beaut.  Didn't make any goddamn sense at all, but it was pretty.




I'm a software engineer.  My wife is a nurse.  We were study buddies through our educations.  If we were particularly caring about how realistic TV shows were, we couldn't watch TV.  I expect that show creators in general don't know shit about shit so I'm not often disappointed.  I can only see so many "hacking" scenes or shitty needle use before I just give up.
Its not really about them not knowing shit though.
We accept that realistic sword techniques and battle formations dont translate as well to screen in the same way we accept that real life hacking isnt as exciting looking as fast typing and multiple flashing screens.
This is more about the context of what is happening and a laziness in applying the glue that connects the characters goals with the show runners vision. They have no shortage of people they could ask about how such a battle might be approached and why such a force might be required to venture out. This could be explained with a scene or two replacing the existing preparation scenes if they cared to.
When I watch MacGyver, I dont care that you cant pick locks with a SAK bottle opener because that show has built its brand on silly contrivances.
GoT has built its brand on being the show with dragons but where decisions and actions have realistic consequences. A boy is left paralysed with no magic cure, the noble hero gets outflanked and killed by bad guys, the seemingly invincible warrior gets an infected minor wound and dies.
The show has abandoned such concepts now and is basically just an american style soap opera with rich people giving evil speeches to each other and one upping the shocking betrayals they can pull off. Now that the night king is gone, most of my friends are telling me that this 'intrigue' is all they ever cared about. Which....fine. soap operas are popular for a reason and I still read comics and Jack Reacher.
But I just dont think its innocent lack of knowledge. I think its knowing what their core audience really cares about and being more interested in that than crafting a story.
Which I get too, but Im definitely going to complain about it so that maybe more things that appeal to me might get made.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 04, 2019, 08:41:36 AM
One could pretty easily, even as a layman, devise a better battle plan. Primarily, they should have stayed inside the castle, banked the inside of the walls and gate, lined the entire wall with soldiers carrying obsidian-tipped spears, and filled the entire interior of the castle with archers firing obsidian-tipped arrows over the walls in volleys.

They didn't have enough space inside the walls of Winterfell for all of them.

I do not think this was established.

Quote
They had a lot of dragon glass, but not that much.

As far as we can tell, the effects of dragon glass are not physical, but magical. An arrow or spear, to be be effective, would therefore require but a tiny shard embedded at the tip.  You might be able to make a thousand such tips from one Hound axehead and a hundred from one Sansa dagger. Do you think there was any hope that the Hound would personally kill anything approaching a thousand wights? That Sansa would kill a hundred?

Quote
Quote
But even if you wanted to meet them on the field you could have devised a much better plan. Unsullied take the center, lining up far from the walls, and fall back in an organized way (as they do in the episode); Dothraki armed with obsidian-pointed spears and split in two groups on left and right perform a flanking maneuver (that is, after all, what cavalry are for). Surround the dead, keep them hemmed in as much as possible, and then bring in the dragons.

Is this Monday morning quarterbacking? We saw how the battle unfolded, now we can say "you should have done x instead of  y"

No, it is not. One need not see the results of the battle to know that their preparations were all wrong. It was obvious before the battle started and actually even from the trailer; they never had any chance of working. The tactics I described are just basic military strategy of the type that Jamie and Jorah, if no-one else, should have known.

Quote
Quote
And for fuck’s sake get Dany some armor.

You realize she has to fly, right and armor is heavy.  She never intended to fight on the ground.

Are you suggesting that Drogon is not capable of carrying another 40-odd pounds? That's demonstrably false given that he has been show effortlessly to carry five adult men in armor in addition to Dany. Nor does she need armor only for fighting on the ground; she needs protection from arrows -- aimed or stray -- and especially spears.  Remember that the Night King has already shown himself to have supernatural strength and accuracy in spear-throwing.

Nor does such armor have to be very heavy, really; a light coat of mail over a leather jerkin and a helmet would provide her significantly better protection without significantly burdening her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 04, 2019, 09:48:20 AM
Im willing to accept that she might be wearing a chain mail shirt and gambeson under this seasons snow queen chique.

And of course whats the point in all of those gorgeous hairstyles if they have to hide them with helmets or hats?

I think a big part of the frustration from some folks is that it has become apparent that there is little point in trying to predict what might logically happen next, because there is no logic any more. Predictions are now more or less based off of wjat would have the most narrative satisfaction or be the most left field but vaguely possible decision for them to make.

Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 04, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?

It's a good question. I'm willing to grant that a dragon's armor makes it hard to stick with arrows or an ordinary spear throw (though Visarion was susceptible enough to the Night King's ice spear). To be honest, I thought Arya's spear was meant for Visarion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 04, 2019, 12:58:00 PM
Also- If dragon glass is so magical that a poke in the eye can kill a giant, shouldnt that undead dragon have been a piece of piss to kill as the biggest target on the battlefield once it landed?

It's a good question. I'm willing to grant that a dragon's armor makes it hard to stick with arrows or an ordinary spear throw (though Visarion was susceptible enough to the Night King's ice spear). To be honest, I thought Arya's spear was meant for Visarion.
Im cool with that! I dont need much of a handwave!
Would have been cool to see someone do the "chink in the armour" trope with an arrow!

And yeah. What a waste of screen time that spear was.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 05, 2019, 09:37:34 PM

And yeah. What a waste of screen time that spear was.

That was no spear. That was a staff with pointy ends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 06, 2019, 01:17:41 AM
This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 01:39:52 AM
This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.
So why do you watch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 06, 2019, 01:40:09 AM
I've been pretty happy so far watching clips and reading the pithy recaps (https://imgur.com/user/ChrysWatchesGot).


edit: As an aside, the difference in quality between the early and later seasons is so sharp that I want to get back into writing just to take a serious whack at the gardener approach.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 06, 2019, 02:16:43 AM
This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.
So why do you watch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I want to see it through.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: wastrel on May 06, 2019, 02:37:47 AM
This episode was such bullshit, from beginning to end.

Sansa's character development through rape and abuse, Jaime dropping all his previous story arc and character development, the fridging of the only woman of colour for motivation, a bullshit teleporting fleet that knows the enemy's plans and is armed with magic, automatic self-guided ballistas, an unreasonable admiration for Jon just to seed pointless conflict and the ever more obvious Mad Queen arc that will make sure that the right clueless dude gets the throne...


Like how can you surprise and defeat a fleet that is supported by flying dragons that breathe fire? How?

The show just lost me completely. It is built on artificial contrivances, refuses to keep the rules of the world and isn't even surprising or fun to watch.
So why do you watch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I want to see it through.

Fuck that.  I refuse to believe you would be happy with literally any scenario. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 06, 2019, 02:43:54 AM
Yeah... I'm getting really tire of the contrived circumstances that are driving the story. 
- How in the absolute fuck did no one see that huge fleet over there; isn't a standard part of moving a military force to have scouts going ahead? 
- How is it that they managed to get Missandei and only Missandei among all that wreckage and swimming sailors; did she jump in a skiff and row past everyone needing help, directly to the enemy fleet? 
- If they have no more ships, how did they all get to King's Landing? 
- Why does Tyrion seem to be under the impression that Dany can't lose now and why does he expect Cersei and her ilk to hold the same view?  They've got their magic bullet for dragons in numbers too large for Drogon to avoid and Dany shows up to demand surrender with what, 50 Unsullied? 
- Why in the hell wouldn't Cersei just start shooting at Drogon and then fire on Dany and her pitiful excuse for a show of force?  You've got them right there and you know you do, and Drogon was definitely within the same distance range Rhaegal was when he was killed!  Take them out! 
- Why wouldn't Cersei take out Tyrion too?  She's already killing Dany's best friend and confidant in front of her because she knows Dany can't do anything at the moment and maybe is even hoping to bait her into a foolish attack; what does she stand to lose by filling Tyrion full of arrows and killing someone she's hated her whole life and ridding her chief rival of her principle adviser? 
- I get Jon's honor and loyalty to his family, I really do, but I don't buy for a second that he's so stupid to think Sansa isn't going to do exactly what she's doing now once she learned of his secret.  He's never been that dumb of a character and even though they are trying to say he just sees her as she was when they were little, there's been too much of a power struggle just between the two of them to think that she's that simple anymore.  Now maybe he takes the view that it's right to tell her and Arya and he can't control the consequences, but no way he's not fully aware of the match he's throwing onto a pool of gasoline.
- I've not really been one to jump on the train of outrage over anything negative that happens to women and non-whites in this show for multiple reasons that aren't really relevant right now, but Jesus effing Christ... this episode...  Missandei is a pretty obvious use of Fridging, Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her, not a SINGLE mention was made of the Dothraki being essentially wiped from the face of the planet, and do we REALLY need scenes of women begging to be fucked by all the powerful men even if that is something that would reasonably happen?  Last but certainly not least, has no one considered that maybe... just maybe we should be past the point where a female leader is too emotional and unstable and must be replaced by a white male hero who doesn't seek power?  Like for fuck's sake people...
- How's is Tyrion's argument to Varys one of loyalty to a person over reason and what is right?  Why is he saying he believes she's a good person when she's literally saying she'll slaughter thousands of innocent people and write it off as just the cost of doing business?  Tyrion has never been as stupid as he's been the last few seasons.

I feel like the writers on this show desperately needed to watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGUNqq3jVLg?t=51
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 06, 2019, 05:21:30 AM
I think at this stage we should ban men from writing female characters without assistance.

Fuck that.  I refuse to believe you would be happy with literally any scenario. 

I don't want it to make me happy, I just want to see how it ends and how they screw it up.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 06, 2019, 07:40:07 AM
I dont think any episode has wasted my time more than this one?
Im amazed Ghost hasnt learned not to talk yet. He knows where to form up in battle (away from jon or any starks. Like why not have him in the crypt?!) Knows how to behave at a funeral and then to save CGI budget he has to back north? Just say you are leaving your dog at home like a normal fucking person.
You cant have scouts for a fleet and Euron is super experienced etc etc. But still- teleporting arrows? How much did they train with those fucking crossbows to hit a flying target at that distance while bobbing on the sea? But then miss the bigger target?
But fine. Ok. Lucky shots.
If Dany had banked around them and attacked from behind, the war would be over.

The above two things are emblematic of the problem with the shows writing- Everyone thought the dragon and ghost were already out. The teaser suggested they werent and then they go out in such contrived and pointless ways anyway? This show is like Zoolander trying turn left, they have to do a full turn right before they get there and waste our remaining time asking for applause for the flourish.
This episode took 80minutes to put Dany in front of Kings Landing with the same size force she SHOULD have had after that last battle and with the same conflict we assumed she had from last episode too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 06, 2019, 11:27:47 AM
Yeah, there were lots of confusing things from a practical perspective.  I don't see how anyone with a dragon gets surprised by a fleet, for instance.  And any bolt that could do the kind of damage those did to a ship, fired from a firm mount, would capsize the ship it was fired from.  And just how many months are we supposed to believe that Circei has had to develop these defenses?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 06, 2019, 11:47:36 AM
A lot of issues with this episode are the same as issues from last season.  Trying to fit too much in too little time.  We had no real frame of time between one moment to the next.  How long between Sansa promising to keep a secret and her telling Tyrion?  If it was the next day, like it looked, it means one thing; but if she struggled over it for a couple of weeks it means something else.  How long has it actually been since they carried the zombie to Kings Landing?


The mount on those ballista were on the prow so the force would be taken by the length of the boat, not the width.  I don't see how that much force would be needed in the bolt itself to do that kind of damage.  In real life we mounted cannons on ships that size firing out of the sides and I daresay the ballista doesn't have that much force.


They could not have been surprised by that fleet, but the could easily have been surprised by the ballista on the fleet. 




The writers have found themselves in a pickle.  In a world with no airplane and no gun, how do you fight someone with three dragons?  I mean, if it were at all realistic, there wouldn't actually be a fight to this.  So, they take out one dragon with magic (ice spear, whatever) and that leaves two.  Two dragons is still unbeatable.  However, if you take out one in a repeatable fashion, then the other is neutralized meaning there is now tension, now a threat.  Sure, the lucky shot thing is bullshit...but taking out dragons with arrows isn't exactly new to fantasy.


Again, if Dany had any brains at all, the siege is obviously the way to go.  The Iron Bank isn't going to just keep giving Cercei money for the Golden Company forever.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 06, 2019, 12:16:45 PM
Maybe the writers should not make up contrivances to make an unbeatable army being beatable by one that cannot possibly win. That is not a pickle  that is not being able to write a compelling story and not understanding the source material.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 06, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
They had no choice but be in this pickle.  Dragons grew up.  Dragons are basically undefeatable weapons.  By giving them to one side and not the other, you have a foregone conclusion, not a conflict.  Your other choice is either not having dragons at all, or giving Cercei dragons, or something that can kill dragons.  Here's where you are.


You might not like how they contrived to get themselves out of the pickle...and I can't say I blame you...but in this world with grown up dragons on one side and none on the other, you are going to have this problem.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 12:59:39 PM
- How in the absolute fuck did no one see that huge fleet over there; isn't a standard part of moving a military force to have scouts going ahead? 

It wasn't huge, but it was concealed in a fjord. By the time the dragons could see it they could see and shoot at the dragons.

Quote
- How is it that they managed to get Missandei and only Missandei among all that wreckage and swimming sailors; did she jump in a skiff and row past everyone needing help, directly to the enemy fleet? 

You don't know that. What we know is that she was sent to get on the skiff. It's entirely plausible that the skiff and anyone on it was captured, and she was the only one they let live.

Quote
- If they have no more ships, how did they all get to King's Landing? 

When did they say all their ships were destroyed?

Quote
- Why does Tyrion seem to be under the impression that Dany can't lose now and why does he expect Cersei and her ilk to hold the same view? 

Because he's smarter than we are?

Quote
They've got their magic bullet for dragons in numbers too large for Drogon to avoid and Dany shows up to demand surrender with what, 50 Unsullied? 

Now they know about the uber-bow-and-arrow they will adjust their tactics.

Quote
- Why in the hell wouldn't Cersei just start shooting at Drogon and then fire on Dany and her pitiful excuse for a show of force?  You've got them right there and you know you do, and Drogon was definitely within the same distance range Rhaegal was when he was killed!  Take them out! 

That's not a show of force, that's her parlay party.

Quote
- Why wouldn't Cersei take out Tyrion too?  She's already killing Dany's best friend and confidant in front of her because she knows Dany can't do anything at the moment and maybe is even hoping to bait her into a foolish attack; what does she stand to lose by filling Tyrion full of arrows and killing someone she's hated her whole life and ridding her chief rival of her principle adviser? 

It's a parlay and a negotiation. Even Cersei has some understanding of the protocols of warfare. 

Quote
- I get Jon's honor and loyalty to his family, I really do, but I don't buy for a second that he's so stupid to think Sansa isn't going to do exactly what she's doing now once she learned of his secret.  He's never been that dumb of a character and even though they are trying to say he just sees her as she was when they were little, there's been too much of a power struggle just between the two of them to think that she's that simple anymore.  Now maybe he takes the view that it's right to tell her and Arya and he can't control the consequences, but no way he's not fully aware of the match he's throwing onto a pool of gasoline.

He had no good options.

-
Quote
I've not really been one to jump on the train of outrage over anything negative that happens to women and non-whites in this show for multiple reasons that aren't really relevant right now, but Jesus effing Christ... this episode...  Missandei is a pretty obvious use of Fridging, Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her, not a SINGLE mention was made of the Dothraki being essentially wiped from the face of the planet, and do we REALLY need scenes of women begging to be fucked by all the powerful men even if that is something that would reasonably happen?  Last but certainly not least, has no one considered that maybe... just maybe we should be past the point where a female leader is too emotional and unstable and must be replaced by a white male hero who doesn't seek power?  Like for fuck's sake people...

Was this the first "Game of Thrones" episode you've seen?

Quote
- How's is Tyrion's argument to Varys one of loyalty to a person over reason and what is right?  Why is he saying he believes she's a good person when she's literally saying she'll slaughter thousands of innocent people and write it off as just the cost of doing business?  Tyrion has never been as stupid as he's been the last few seasons.

That's oversimplifying Tyrion's argument and Daney's intention.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 01:40:25 PM
https://twitter.com/JennaGuillaume/status/1125291475699290113
Jenna Guillaume:
You're telling me they had TWO YEARS to put together a decent show and they couldn't even spot the goddamn Starbucks cup in Winterfell??!?! #GameOfThrones

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D53Wj83UIAEWfCR.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 06, 2019, 01:47:32 PM
They had no choice but be in this pickle.  Dragons grew up.  Dragons are basically undefeatable weapons.  By giving them to one side and not the other, you have a foregone conclusion, not a conflict.  Your other choice is either not having dragons at all, or giving Cercei dragons, or something that can kill dragons.  Here's where you are.


You might not like how they contrived to get themselves out of the pickle...and I can't say I blame you...but in this world with grown up dragons on one side and none on the other, you are going to have this problem.

They could find drama elsewhere.

Daenerys could win the war, lose the peace.  Undermined at every turn. Managed by her underlings.  Provinces start breaking away. Insurgency. Maesters poison her dragons. Or something.

Comedy Option: The NK could win.  He's an expert at ice magic and Dany can't even get her dragons to strafe a formation correctly.  At Winterfell, everyone dies.  Zerg rush the rest of the continent. Or maybe all of his strategies and goals center on collective consciousnesses and the weirwood net, he exposed himself just to get at Brann before Brann could adeptly use the weirwood net, too. So he sacks Winterfell, kills Brann and the dragons then fucks off.  Cersei wins. Everything equilibrates around her rule.

Or maybe a happy ending in three episodes?  Army of the Dead hits Winterfell while the NK hits King's Landing.  At Winterfell, without the NK's anti-aircraft fire, the dead are wiped out.  At King's Landing, courtesy of Cersei's hubris, the living are wiped out.  A R'hllor-like intrusion on Arya by the God of Death sets up the NK's death.  Dany takes credit for saving the North. Starks take credit for saving the South.  Dany & Jon fill the political vacuum by ruling from Winterfell.  Wall comes down. The top half of westeros starts to thaw. ~Fin~

Or something.  It's fiction. They can write it anyway they want!  Frankly, a lot of the fan theories are more entertaining than what we've been getting.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 06, 2019, 02:07:54 PM
And just how many months are we supposed to believe that Circei has had to develop these defenses?

Now that you bring that up, it's worth pointing out that the baby she's telling Euron is his was conceived before Jaime left to attack Highgarden last season.  I figure that, bare minimum, it's been 2 months since then just from the time it took for him to move his forces there and back, for Dany to move her forces from there to Winterfell, and then for her to move her forces from Winterfell to Dragonstone.  And that's the most generous I can be considering the vast distances involved and the slow moving speed of an army of those sizes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 06, 2019, 02:18:31 PM
Hell, last night's episode probably covered the events of a couple of weeks, at a minimum.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 03:03:14 PM
... just how many months are we supposed to believe that Circei has had to develop these defenses?

We’ve known that she was developing the ADA (anti-dragon arrow) since sometime last season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 06, 2019, 03:05:14 PM
Bronn used one in 704.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 06, 2019, 04:14:36 PM
Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her,

We are introduced to Brienne in Season 1 as a kick ass warrior in love with a man she can never have, who then becomes part of his guard just to be near him. She's a hopeless romantic at heart who falls for men she can't have.

Brienne and Jaime have had a strong friendship built on respect and hardship over several years. I find it easy to believe Brienne fell in love and started planning a life with Jaime after her first sexual experience. It's not inconceivable she has been in love with him for a while.

I doubt we will get this scene in the coming books.



Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 06, 2019, 04:23:57 PM
I think that even if Dany used her dragons well, its not an insurmountable obstacle for her enemies. They just have to try and attack them on the ground somehow through poison or ambush off the battle field.
Or assassinate Dany herself.
Or wait a generation until they die and then rise up (ok, that one isnt great for the show).
Even trebuchets with nets would be a risk when the dragons come in close enough to burn troops.

The point is, that we do not need to have them artificially stupid so the enemy has a chance. And if thats the case then the far more interesting story would be to have her roll over Cercei but then we focus on the north fighting against her and make her the villain.

All they have to do is have some consistency and not have characters who are THIS stupid and I would be pretty happy. I just played Mortal Kombat 11 and found myself enjoying the writing way more than this season (and last season).

I do wonder though about what studio pressures they are trying to work with. Im sure they are not all that free to write whatever they want and have to try and strike some balance between set pieces and elements that have been mandated.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 06, 2019, 04:33:46 PM
How are ballista any stupider than trebuchet with nets?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 04:36:59 PM
Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her,

She was weeping as her lover left her to go back to his sister/lover.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 06, 2019, 04:38:30 PM
https://twitter.com/JennaGuillaume/status/1125291475699290113
Jenna Guillaume:
You're telling me they had TWO YEARS to put together a decent show and they couldn't even spot the goddamn Starbucks cup in Winterfell??!?! #GameOfThrones


HBO statement on last night's episode of Game of Thrones


In response to inquiries from those who saw a craft services coffee cup in Sunday night’s episode of GAME OF THRONES, HBO states, “The latte that appeared in the episode was a mistake.  Daenerys had ordered an herbal tea.”
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 06, 2019, 04:55:09 PM
Somewhere out there thousands of onset dressers are screaming at the top of their lungs  "no drinks on set"

I bet it was a DP, Director or Producer who left it there. The crew drinks crafty coffee and actors don't drink coffee on set in full makeup and wardrobe.

Im betting they actually caught it on that take then removed it on the next take but editorial used it anyway for whatever reason and didn't mark it for cgi removal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 06, 2019, 06:33:30 PM
Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her,

She was weeping as her lover left her to go back to his sister/lover.
Yeah that wasnt unclear.
Its just a betrayal of the character we had come to love and respect.
If she thought he was going to fight with Cersei she would be angry and aggressive.
If she thought he was going back to kill Cersei she would say something like "You are an idiot. But I hope you come back".

No one is confused about why she cried. We are annoyed at the bad writing that allowed her to cry for such a reason.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 06, 2019, 06:36:27 PM
How are ballista any stupider than trebuchet with nets?
Its not really. I was responding to the idea that the war is unwinable if Dany has a dragon.
Nets would require less accuracy though. Thats why arrow heads for hunting birds have little wire loops on them.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 06, 2019, 06:53:01 PM
Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her,

She was weeping as her lover left her to go back to his sister/lover.
Yeah that wasnt unclear.
Its just a betrayal of the character we had come to love and respect.
If she thought he was going to fight with Cersei she would be angry and aggressive.
If she thought he was going back to kill Cersei she would say something like "You are an idiot. But I hope you come back".

No one is confused about why she cried. We are annoyed at the bad writing that allowed her to cry for such a reason.

Maybe it was just my expectations coloring my perceptions, but I actually thought he was leaving to fight her because now he realized she might win.  If what you're saying is supposed to be the case then man... that's even freaking worse.  As for the crying thing, like with many other contrivances this show has been guilty of, it's not that that they haven't said why this thing may be happening that I dislike at all.  My objection is that they manipulate the narrative and characters in unnatural ways to create moments they want to have and in this case they manipulated the scenario to have Brienne, in a dress, bawling her eyes out over her lost love in the same episode Dany's closest advisers debate treason against her because she's becoming too emotional.  Compare Brienne's scene to earlier in the episode where Gendry basically goes through the same scenario.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 07, 2019, 01:39:41 PM
So suppose that Dany wins but goes mad queen and is killed in favor of John.  He doesn't want to be king and fucks off to the North.  Who inherits the throne?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 07, 2019, 01:43:13 PM
So suppose that Dany wins but goes mad queen and is killed in favor of John.  He doesn't want to be king and fucks off to the North.  Who inherits the throne?

(click to show/hide)
The final shot is John at a work camp, by himself, working as a lumberjack?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 07, 2019, 02:03:54 PM
Episode 4 (https://imgur.com/gallery/wwPPQhK) recap.

(https://i.imgur.com/xMlWhPZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/z2vSHP1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WlvP4ZI.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on May 07, 2019, 02:26:57 PM
I'm guessing Jamie kills Circe in keeping with the cyclical theme in GoT. Notice they stressed the new PRINCE in Dorn was now their ally. The prince who was promised...

Why didn't Dany's dragon flame all the boats after it dodged the arrows? What as the strategy behind returning to that island?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 07, 2019, 02:39:10 PM
Nope

Bob Newhart wakes up next to Suzanne Pleshette

"honey wake up... you wont believe the dream I just had..."
"Go back to sleep"
"but honey, I was a bastard or at least I thought I was a bastard... then the dragon lady... and... and .. it all felt so real!"
"It was just a dream, everything is fine, go back to sleep"... "wait.. what dragon lady?"
"You know nothing Emily"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 07, 2019, 02:41:27 PM
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/2cad884e2277ea79d3f7d03beef19aaf/tenor.gif?itemid=12093663)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 07, 2019, 03:14:22 PM
Jamie kills Circei, Dany kills John, Arya kills Dany.  Gendry becomes king. Sansa becomes Queen in the North.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Captain Video on May 07, 2019, 03:23:54 PM
Jamie kills Circei, Dany kills John, Arya kills Dany.  Gendry becomes king. Sansa becomes Queen in the North.

I got into an argument with my roommate about this last night, I also think Jamie kills Circei or tries and fails.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: moj on May 07, 2019, 03:51:21 PM
It would be better for my fantasy league if Circei kills a lot of people. I kinda hope there is no happy ending, to me that seems to truer to the world the show creates but not sure that will happen. Hollywood is a sucker for a happy ending.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 07, 2019, 03:57:19 PM
I'm worried about Arya... the assassin who trained her is on Cercei's side and probably has her on his list  :(
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 07, 2019, 04:03:38 PM
Jaqen H'Ghar works for Cersei? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 07, 2019, 04:32:25 PM
Brienne is instantly turned from bad ass warrior into weeping lover watching her man go off to die instead of staying home with her,

She was weeping as her lover left her to go back to his sister/lover.
Yeah that wasnt unclear.
Its just a betrayal of the character we had come to love and respect.
If she thought he was going to fight with Cersei she would be angry and aggressive.
If she thought he was going back to kill Cersei she would say something like "You are an idiot. But I hope you come back".

No one is confused about why she cried. We are annoyed at the bad writing that allowed her to cry for such a reason.

Maybe it was just my expectations coloring my perceptions, but I actually thought he was leaving to fight her because now he realized she might win.  If what you're saying is supposed to be the case then man... that's even freaking worse.  As for the crying thing, like with many other contrivances this show has been guilty of, it's not that that they haven't said why this thing may be happening that I dislike at all.  My objection is that they manipulate the narrative and characters in unnatural ways to create moments they want to have and in this case they manipulated the scenario to have Brienne, in a dress, bawling her eyes out over her lost love in the same episode Dany's closest advisers debate treason against her because she's becoming too emotional.  Compare Brienne's scene to earlier in the episode where Gendry basically goes through the same scenario.
I also think he is going to fight.
There are some who think he is going to join her.

Regardless of interpretation, Brienne crying over it is a load of bollocks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 07, 2019, 04:58:21 PM
Jaqen H'Ghar works for Cersei?

I think so. The Iron Bank is from Braavos and IIRC he's worked for them. But there is telling if he's working for them now. 

I should have said he could be on her side.

(I wonder if it's worth looking at all the faces in this last episode to see if he's one of them).

I'm still worried about my precious Arya.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 07, 2019, 06:45:31 PM
Haven't you been paying attention? There is no Jaquen H'ghar, there are only faceless men who have worn that face and they do not work for the Iron Bank.  As for my predictions, I'm now thinking we won't have another big battle, or at least it won't be the focus. I'm guessing Sandor and Arya try and go after Cersei but Gregor gets the drop on Arya. No idea if she dies or not, but I'd wager Sandor dies protecting her and killing Gregor. I think Jaime uses that distraction to sneak in and kill Cersei, maybe while she's gloating over Arya and Sandor failing. As for Jon and Dany, 100% Jon wins the iron throne at this point, but I doubt he kills Dany. It'll be Tyrion.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 07, 2019, 07:14:32 PM
I wonder if Arya may have to choose between revenge and saving her family from Dany?

Back to being negative- The north no longer need scouts or spies. They have Bran. Who they dont use and dont press for more clear answers when they do.
Title: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: CarbShark on May 07, 2019, 07:15:57 PM
I'd wager Sandor dies protecting her and killing Gregor. I think Jaime uses that distraction to sneak in and kill Cersei, maybe while she's gloating over Arya and Sandor failing.

I’ll take that bet.

Quote
As for Jon and Dany, 100% Jon wins the iron throne at this point, but I doubt he kills Dany. It'll be Tyrion.

100% ?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 07, 2019, 07:58:38 PM
Quote
As for Jon and Dany, 100% Jon wins the iron throne at this point, but I doubt he kills Dany. It'll be Tyrion.

100% ?

Well, I'll hedge a bit.  I don't think Jon will die, and I do think Dany will, but there's an outside chance there will not even be an Iron Throne to sit on either physically or essentially in that there may not be a unified 7 Kingdoms or monarchy at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Nosmas on May 07, 2019, 08:16:29 PM
Yeah, there were lots of confusing things from a practical perspective.  I don't see how anyone with a dragon gets surprised by a fleet, for instance.  And any bolt that could do the kind of damage those did to a ship, fired from a firm mount, would capsize the ship it was fired from.  And just how many months are we supposed to believe that Circei has had to develop these defenses?

A lot of the writing in seasons 7 and 8 bothers me, but these few things that I've seen repeated about episode 4 don't really stick out to me.

I assumed the 10 or so ships were hidden by the islands. The fact that they could shoot that far with that kind of accuracy on the first few shots is ridiculous to me. Not the surprise part.

I don't think for a second those ballistas would capsize those ships. We can't know the vertical center of gravity or center of buoyancy but even if it fired directly port or starboard (they appeared to fire forward) there's still no way it capsizes. The heeling moment arm would have to be insane.

Given the amount of travelling I assume many months have passed. That seems like a reasonable amount of time for a city preparing for war to be capable of building 100 ballistas.

At this point it's painfully obvious that the writing has suffered but it also feels obvious to me that some people decided to hate the remainder of the show in advance. I think a lot of those people will hate whatever happens from here on because they're committed to it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 08, 2019, 04:51:03 AM
At this point it's painfully obvious that the writing has suffered but it also feels obvious to me that some people decided to hate the remainder of the show in advance. I think a lot of those people will hate whatever happens from here on because they're committed to it.

Also because it is really, really bad and lazy. Nothing matters anymore and I am happy to see the backlash growing ever stronger. I feel vindicated.

The best summary is how they did not bother to include Jon saying goodbye to Ghost, because of  CGI budget reasons. It was all kinds of wrong. They could have had him killed in battle, which would have been even cheaper. But no. They could have made a point about Jon leaving his Stak heritage behind to embrace his Targ side. They did not do that and they killed "his" dragon anyway. They could have done a goodbye scene. They did not.

They decided to keep him alive for no reason whatsoever (Ghost hasn't served any purpose and hasn't even been seen all that much for seasons), and then they film a half-assed scene that makes no sense, which contradicts previous events for no reason and call it a day: no Wildling would ever want to go back beyond the wall. All they ever wanted was to get South, which is not a barely habitable frozen wastelend.

But I guess the foreginers have to go back where they came from. Hell, this show is really developing some weirdly white supremacist tendencies. I am less and less suprised aboutt their upcoming Confederate fasc-fiction project.


Oh, and I just noticed that King's landing is in the desert now, somehow.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Harry Black on May 08, 2019, 05:19:06 AM
I think its very unfair to handwave the mountain of legit criticism of the show as people deciding to hate it in advance.
They have had 2 (at least) really poorly written and paced seasons. "The writers had to get people to the end point" would not be accepted as an excuse in any other story whatsoever!
I love lots of things that almost everyone hates, I dont feel the need to assume those people have just made their minds up arbitrarily, I accept that maybe what I like is bad but its ok to still like it. GoT is nowhere near that level. Its totally possible for people to just not like how they have done things and be open to enjoying the good moments.

People keep saying though that this or that may have happened over the course of weeks/months but we have an actual clock in Westeros that can tell us this is not the case- Cercei got pregnant from sex with Jaime and is still not showing even when naked with Euron.
On Ghost, I dont think he really can die because of the implications of a Starks wolf dying in the narrative. But yeah, Im sure the free folk would have no interest in taking over some of the farmland or keeps that have been left empty in the wake of the night king (whose impact on the narrative going forward seems to be the same as if a plague had hit the north).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 08, 2019, 05:47:32 AM
Let's not forget that HBO wanted 10 seasons, and it was the decision of the useless showrunners to cut it short, because they were ending the story.

On Ghost, I dont think he really can die because of the implications of a Starks wolf dying in the narrative.

The wolves had no narrative purpose since the death of Grey Wind in Season 3.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: mindme on May 08, 2019, 08:14:21 AM
Fan theory goes Tyrian tells Cersei to think of her baby. Euron of course thinks its his baby. But if Euron works out the time line, Cersei clearly told Tyrian before Euron banged the queen. So it's not his baby. Fan theory goes Euron then kills Cersei. Frankly, given some of the lazy writing, I doubt they've even thought about this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 08, 2019, 08:17:47 AM
Fan theory goes Tyrian tells Cersei to think of her baby. Euron of course thinks its his baby. But if Euron works out the time line, Cersei clearly told Tyrian before Euron banged the queen. So it's not his baby. Fan theory goes Euron then kills Cersei. Frankly, given some of the lazy writing, I doubt they've even thought about this.

I don't know. If I remember correctly, they made sure Euron was in that shot...and I thought I caught a flicker in his eye when he heard that.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Rai on May 08, 2019, 08:38:45 AM
Based on the leaks I saw, it is going to be WAY more stupid
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: The Latinist on May 08, 2019, 09:45:26 AM
Can we agree to a policy in this thread of limiting spoiler discussion to officially-released materials?  I'm fine with trailers, 'next week on', etc., as well as book discussion (though I haven't read the books) and even interviews with principles; but I don't want to be spoiled by leaked information.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 08, 2019, 09:47:25 AM
Can we agree to a policy in this thread of limiting spoiler discussion to officially-released materials?  I'm fine with trailers, 'next week on', etc., as well as book discussion (though I haven't read the books) and even interviews with principles; but I don't want to be spoiled by leaked information.
I concur.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 08, 2019, 10:19:04 AM
I agree.

Last season the leaks helped me to enjoy the remaining eps a bit more because I wasnt surprised by anything and didnt have such negative reactions in the moment.
Having read the leaks for this season, I feel a weight lifted in terms of no longer trying to guess.
I guess that study that implied spoilers add to enjoyment was right?
In some cases at least. I would have hated to have the battle spoiled for me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 09, 2019, 06:28:44 AM
(https://i.redd.it/tqnx5apks5x21.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 09, 2019, 06:54:43 AM
Haha! Oh man... If that's not emblematic of how sloppy the writing has gotten, I don't know what is. I mean, it was last friggin season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on May 12, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
Well......that was.......crap.

sigh.

Spectacular, well produced......but crap.

I've defended this show all season,but.......that was crap.

Arya is going to kill Dany.

It's the Arya Stark Saga.

Crap

Disappointing crap.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 13, 2019, 12:13:19 AM
I just don’t know what to say.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 13, 2019, 02:16:21 AM
For the first time, I'm considering not even watching the next episode.  This was quite possibly the stupidest and worst way this episode could have gone.  Fuck these writers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7UQOYskas
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 13, 2019, 03:05:46 AM
Anyone else literally depressed after this episode?  Like, I'm trying to do my usual routine of perusing memes and reddit discussions, but I'm realizing I don't want to even think about it.  I don't want to analyze it.  I'm just wildly disappointed, and that's after having my expectations drastically lowered after every episode this season and after each of the previous two seasons...
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 1Pirate on May 13, 2019, 03:35:50 AM
Whelp, two episodes to destroy 7 seasons of character development. I’ll admit I enjoyed it, but in a more watching-a-slow-motion-train-full-of-improbably-armed-nuclear-missiles-crash-into-a-brick-wall way, not in a epic-fight-delivering-character-and-narrative-payoffs-from-the-previous-seven-seasons way. I wasn’t expecting much, but I was hoping Cersei had a Wildfire-Mk II plan that Jaime stopped by killing her.

I’m in the “Arya kills Dany” prediction camp. Still want to know what happens, maybe they’ll surprise me with something like a “Davos ends up on the Iron Throne” ending.


Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 13, 2019, 04:23:21 AM
I just don't get it. At all.

Is this what they were really going for? This is the ending that they worked for? Are D&D satisified? Did they want to make their own Batman vs. Superman, just even worse?

They have been seeding the Mad Queen thing for a long time, and it is fine. I get it, and I can even support it. But they went from seeding to just going to the cornerstone and buying the produce.

Yes, two dragons died, but she never really cared about them since they were grown and didn't even mourn the dead ones all that much. Missandei also died, but they haven't had an on-screen conversation in forever and her importance was never shown, only mentioned maybe three times altogether. She was isolated and ignored, but just because the writers isolated her so that they could build Jon up without any internal logic. Her conquest of Westeros did not go well due to artificial contrivances that never made any sense, and because besides the North and King's Landing, Westeros does not even exist any more. And she hears bells and goes all genocidal.

Talking about Jon. He is the mediocre white dude designated protagonist that all mediocre white male writers love. He is now clearly the anti-Dany (no Targaryen madness there at all) because he has a penis. He is a great king, even though he gave up his crown in about two minutes. He is a fantastic leader who abandoned every single post he ever held. He is legendary commander who lost every single one of his battles, but was then miraculously saved by someone else showing up in the last minute. I get why Dany is fed up with him.

Also, I have so many questions. This was the big conculsion, the siege of King's Landing that we have been anticipating for three seasons? There was hardly any fighting, one dragon just mopped it all up. Why introuce the Golden Company when they served no role whatsoever? Why have Jaime go through 8 seasons of character development and then just walk back on it in two episodes? Why build Cersei up as a big villain and then have her watch the whole spectacle and then be killed by rocks? Why have a compelling, complex female character reduced to motherhood before the end? Why does Tyrion suddenly care about the people of King's Landing, especially the innocent small children? He sure never cared about it before. Where did Varys' sanity go? Are we supposed to overlook the whole "evil mostly brown barbarians rape and pillage through the innocent, white populace and destroy civilisation" thing or is it the point? How did the scorpion operators suddenly forgot how to hit a dragon flying at top speed  three times, at the range of a kilometre or two? How many times did Arya die this episode? What was the point of Cleganebowl besides stupid fanservice that would have made JJ Abrams blush? Why did Euron attack Jaime? Are all prophercies now bullshit?

I could go on and on, the more I think... What the hell happeend to Sandor? His story was never about revenge against his brother. He is a broken person who hates the world and himself, who is tired of violence and just wants to get out. I think his story ended in the books, I sure hope so, and it was a perfect ending for him. In the show, he was there, but then he was brought back to square one, to be a gruff murder machine who says "fuck" a lot. And then he dies.

My predictions are that Jon kills Dany (Arya seems to be on an arc away from murder and revenge, though D&D don't really care about arcs in any way, so who knows. She may just end up in Storm's End after all), but he may also die. The Iron Throne will be symbolically destroyed, that is certain. Tyrion will surely end up at some leadership role, because he is clearly the best and smartest and kindest person in the world (if you ignore every single one of his actions and decisions and just concentrate on what everyone else is saying about him for no discerneable reason). Or he may die due to the treason he committed, just to "subvert expectations", even though he has no living witnesses. Sansa will do something, probably rule the North. I hope she won't re-marry Tyrion, that would be awful. Bran will say something ominous in the end. Davos and Grey Worm won't do anything significant. Yara may show up, but probably won't.

Meera Reed, Daario Naharis, Edmure Tully, Aeron Greyjoy and probably a dozen more forgotten characters will never be seen again.

What I really hope is the rumour that GRRM already has both upcoming books ready, he was just waiting for the show to end. Because I want to see if it was really always going to be this horrendous.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 13, 2019, 08:31:43 AM
I don't agree with everything you've said, Rai, but I am for the first time more in agreement with you than not. Not sure about your predictions, though.

Where did Varys' sanity go?

Pretty sure he tried to have a little girl poison Dany.  Confronting Jon was an act of desperation when she wouldn't eat.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 08:33:06 AM
Yeah. Cercei and jaime dying together was unsatisfying but i preferred it to a face to face thing. Basically, Dany killed her. And it had to go that way or whoever killed her was also killing an unborn baby and thats a step too far for the show.
They FUCKED jaime.
Tyrion should have fled during the battle, how does he think he will be left alive?!
There was no set up for how far Dany went. She murdered a city instead of just going straight for cersei. It was totally out of character for her and only happened cos they need her to be mad suddenly.
Euron vs Jaime was fucking annoying and pathetic.
Arya gave up on revenge only to get back into revenge. Notice how much she looks like Ned Stark now btw?

I think knowing the spoilers helped me to not get mad. It was better than all the other episodes for the last 2 seasons for me since I just dont expect the choices to make sense any more and it had way more Arya and Clegane.

It occurs to me I should have been reading spoilers all along, afterall, thats how I started the show having read the books and it never bothered me at all.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: moj on May 13, 2019, 08:55:49 AM
I disagree that it was totally out of character for Danny. There has been a lot of foreshadowing of her doing this, this season and through out the show reminders of her family's history of bloodlust. I do find amusing all that Daenerys has been a somewhat popular baby name and how the parents will feel about naming there child after a murdering war criminal.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 13, 2019, 09:09:12 AM
I would say it was very much in character, but way out of character progression.

It was as if you took Harrenhall-era Arya and made her kill all the Freys the next episode.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
This is just another example of them trying to fit too much into too little screen time.


The Mad Queen thing has been coming for years now.  I had it in my mind at least back to whenever she was crucifying the "good masters".  Season 3?  But she went from 10mph to 100mph with the sounding of some bells.  I get it, but it should have taken longer or something.  I'm not particularly mad about it, but it's just another example from these last two seasons of them being in a hurry to get this show over with.




There were things I liked.  I really liked the scene where Tyrion frees Jamie.  The conversation between them was played great between the actors.  Tyrion knows he will die for it, but has always loved his brother.  I liked the final scene between Arya and the Hound.  It was compressed (like everything else this season) and they should have had more scenes leading up that showed her thirst for vengeance was still around, we haven't heard much of it since she has been reunited with her family.  But I did like how it ended.


And I know, I'm a bit of a sap, but I liked Clegainebowl.  From the leadup with Qyburn getting snuffed out, to final act of death by fire.  Really dug it.  The shot of them on the stairs with the dragon overhead is everything that Jr. High me couldn't have imagined being on TV.




Things I didn't like...dragons are once again invincible.  I mean, I'm fine with dragons being invincible.  I'm not fine with one week going from "they are in real mortal danger so we're going to have to rethink how we take this city" to "nevermind, they are unstoppable killing machines".  The one dragon died from the Night King.  Fine, magic, whatever.  But that second dragon died just to make us rethink how easy it would be for Dany to take Kings Landing.  Then, it is just that easy for Dany to take Kings Landing.


Second, the end of the Lannister twins.  Look, I gave zero fucks one way or another about the Euron fight, Jamie killed him, fine.  Someone needed to and it might as well have been him.  Lena Heady played the ending as well as I've seen a performance from an actor dealing with the impending death of their character.  It was masterful on her part.  It was garbage on the writers.  I'm fine with her breaking down at the end when she sees Jamie.  I'm not OK with Jamie being there to protect her because he loves her.  Also, there is a chance they aren't dead, which will annoy me further.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 13, 2019, 09:19:19 AM
If Dany had just destroyed the Red Keep or even just started with the Red Keep, it would have made a lot more sense than deciding to specifically target the innocents of the city, not to mention seemingly not caring about her own soldiers.  Also, I call being totally correct on her magically having a large Dothraki and Unsullied army again after they appeared to have been completely sacrificed (for no reason) during the Battle of Winterfell. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 09:30:28 AM
Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see the Dothraki.  I figured some Unsullied had survived Winterfell; but it seemed to me the Dothraki were just plain wiped out.  They might have had a platoon standing by for a more traditional use of cavalry while their fellow horsemen were thrown away in a head on collision with fresh troops.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 13, 2019, 09:35:22 AM
I am also not sure whose idea was it to assault a city with cavalry. That isn't quite how it works.

Though, it is the same series where two separate armies decided to defend the city walls from the outside.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 13, 2019, 10:17:58 AM
I am also not sure whose idea was it to assault a city with cavalry. That isn't quite how it works.

Though, it is the same series where two separate armies decided to defend the city walls from the outside.

There was a scene where they said half the unsullied and half the Dothraki were killed.

You don't always go to war with the army you want, sometimes you must fight with the army you have.

(once the city walls were breached it went pretty well)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 13, 2019, 10:29:29 AM
I am also not sure whose idea was it to assault a city with cavalry. That isn't quite how it works.

Though, it is the same series where two separate armies decided to defend the city walls from the outside.

There was a scene where they said half the unsullied and half the Dothraki were killed.

You don't always go to war with the army you want, sometimes you must fight with the army you have.

(once the city walls were breached it went pretty well)

Dismounted cavalry is how horsemen were always used in siege warfare. Maybe they could have saved enough money by skipping the horses to allow for Jon to at least scritch Ghost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 10:50:50 AM
I know there have been little hints of the Mad Queen over the seasons, but nothing that would explain the sharp left turn she took this week with her sunken eyes and refusal to eat and wanton massacre of innocents.
It was expected that she would callously allow (and maybe even relish) innocents to be caught up in sacking the city, but to actively murder them herself instead of going after the people who killed her friend and dragon makes zero sense to me at all. We havent seen this kind of paychopathy from that character, even with the Tarlys which was a pretty reasonable action in the context of the world.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 13, 2019, 11:05:29 AM
This is just another example of them trying to fit too much into too little screen time.

The Mad Queen thing has been coming for years now.  I had it in my mind at least back to whenever she was crucifying the "good masters".  Season 3?  But she went from 10mph to 100mph with the sounding of some bells.  I get it, but it should have taken longer or something.  I'm not particularly mad about it, but it's just another example from these last two seasons of them being in a hurry to get this show over with.

I agree that it all comes down to it being too rushed. Imagine if they'd had three eight-episode seasons to accomplish it in (as I understand HBO wanted), rather than one six-episode season. They could have shown real betrayal, increasing isolation, and most importantly developing madness and increasingly despotic behavior.  This could have grown until Jon ultimately abandoned or even openly challenged her, which unhinged her. And they could have established that she came to blame the entire population of Westeros for her problems to give her some motivation. The turn was just too abrupt.

Quote
Things I didn't like...dragons are once again invincible.  I mean, I'm fine with dragons being invincible.  I'm not fine with one week going from "they are in real mortal danger so we're going to have to rethink how we take this city" to "nevermind, they are unstoppable killing machines".

Exactly.

Quote
I'm not OK with Jamie being there to protect her because he loves her.

This was perhaps the most infuriating part for me. They gave him an arc and allowed us to watch him grow over eight seasons, and then they just undid everything in one episode. They're not just subverting expectations here, but subverting the very characters they themselves established. I think that Benioff and Weisse don't know the difference.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 12:12:08 PM
I know there have been little hints of the Mad Queen over the seasons, but nothing that would explain the sharp left turn she took this week with her sunken eyes and refusal to eat and wanton massacre of innocents.
It was expected that she would callously allow (and maybe even relish) innocents to be caught up in sacking the city, but to actively murder them herself instead of going after the people who killed her friend and dragon makes zero sense to me at all. We havent seen this kind of paychopathy from that character, even with the Tarlys which was a pretty reasonable action in the context of the world.

When you push someone that hard that was abused as much as Dani was as a child they tend to strike back the way they were brought up. The anger was always there and she felt she had no choice, she choose fear. She planned this, she never intended to stop at the bells.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 12:26:42 PM
I knew it! LOL still better if it was Bob.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60207830_390431041561255_1476442978489729024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=61dac9e85651a2128d9fc6f9d4d18bcc&oe=5D56FAF8)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 01:07:04 PM
I know there have been little hints of the Mad Queen over the seasons, but nothing that would explain the sharp left turn she took this week with her sunken eyes and refusal to eat and wanton massacre of innocents.
It was expected that she would callously allow (and maybe even relish) innocents to be caught up in sacking the city, but to actively murder them herself instead of going after the people who killed her friend and dragon makes zero sense to me at all. We havent seen this kind of paychopathy from that character, even with the Tarlys which was a pretty reasonable action in the context of the world.

When you push someone that hard that was abused as much as Dani was as a child they tend to strike back the way they were brought up. The anger was always there and she felt she had no choice, she choose fear. She planned this, she never intended to stop at the bells.
When you write a story, you set things up in a way that hopefully the audience doesnt see coming but that when it does, they can look back and see that it was always inevitable.
That is not the case here. You can make such arguments all day and in the real world, people flip the fuck out and do mass murders all the time, but this was not sufficiently developed or earned.
Its bad writing.

Even when Ned died, we couldnt really be mad, because we had been told since the start that his honour was a liability. It was set up sufficiently.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 01:24:20 PM
I know there have been little hints of the Mad Queen over the seasons, but nothing that would explain the sharp left turn she took this week with her sunken eyes and refusal to eat and wanton massacre of innocents.
It was expected that she would callously allow (and maybe even relish) innocents to be caught up in sacking the city, but to actively murder them herself instead of going after the people who killed her friend and dragon makes zero sense to me at all. We havent seen this kind of paychopathy from that character, even with the Tarlys which was a pretty reasonable action in the context of the world.

When you push someone that hard that was abused as much as Dani was as a child they tend to strike back the way they were brought up. The anger was always there and she felt she had no choice, she choose fear. She planned this, she never intended to stop at the bells.
When you write a story, you set things up in a way that hopefully the audience doesnt see coming but that when it does, they can look back and see that it was always inevitable.
That is not the case here. You can make such arguments all day and in the real world, people flip the fuck out and do mass murders all the time, but this was not sufficiently developed or earned.
Its bad writing.

Even when Ned died, we couldnt really be mad, because we had been told since the start that his honour was a liability. It was set up sufficiently.

I don't agree, I think if you go back and watch you will see that it was inevitable. Her advisors have always had to try and keep her at bay. They even pointed out how she reacted to her brothers death. She gets happy when her enemies die, she almost looks ecstatic, John usually gets sad like Ned, its the difference in how they were brought up.

I think this was Martins plan from the beginning just like John.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
Several people (including myself) have been predicting that she would end up being the Mad Queen for years.  That wasn't just speculation, it was specifically from clues in the show/text.


While I agree that the final turn was rushed, that's nothing new on this season.  The whole last short season should have been two full seasons.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 13, 2019, 01:48:58 PM
Things I didn't like...dragons are once again invincible.  I mean, I'm fine with dragons being invincible.  I'm not fine with one week going from "they are in real mortal danger so we're going to have to rethink how we take this city" to "nevermind, they are unstoppable killing machines".   


I had no problem with that.  The first dragon was taken by complete surprise. It was flying low, slow and straight and they had no clue that the weapon was there.

Once that happened, Dany was able to maneuver to avoid being hit too, despite a lot of arrows (bolts?) in the air.

In last night's episode, she flew out of the sun, making it difficult to be seen until it was too late. 

Plus, the bows (crossbows) are unwieldily and slow to pivot and aim.  That made it easy and believable for Dany to outflank them and destroy them from behind.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 02:11:14 PM
I liked the fight between the hound and the mountain, I think that was my favorite part. I also like what he did for Arya.

Im ok with Cersei and Jamies death. Jamie got what he wanted by dying in his sisters arms. They were both buried alive, personally, I think I would rather be killed by dragon fire than buried alive.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 02:13:58 PM
Several people (including myself) have been predicting that she would end up being the Mad Queen for years.  That wasn't just speculation, it was specifically from clues in the show/text.


While I agree that the final turn was rushed, that's nothing new on this season.  The whole last short season should have been two full seasons.
The clues were absolutely there. But they skipped about 5 steps to make it happen before the last episode.
If they werent so locked on having it happen within the same space as Cercei being defeated then at the current pace, she would have been queen for a few years when people realised she had become a tyrant.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 02:22:36 PM
For those that are disappointed I am wondering if there was anything you did like about the episode?


Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
I think it's hard to argue that it wasn't shot well.  There are several absolutely stunningly lit scenes early on the episode.  I don't know how much was lighting and camera work and how much was done in Post, but the visuals on this episode are stellar.  I know people will balk at the video game quality of the Clegainebowl fight, very Snyderesque, but in this environment it was great for me (and I hate most Snyder films).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 03:01:26 PM
For those that are disappointed I am wondering if there was anything you did like about the episode?
I loved every moment of Arya on screen, I loved the Clegane bowl, I really enjoyed the visuals of the battle, I thought Dinklage and Heady did incredible jobs portraying a myriad of emotions with what they were given.
I think the directors did a brilliant job of creating a sense of claustrophobia and panic.
Grey Worm was badass and in character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 13, 2019, 03:10:38 PM
For those that are disappointed I am wondering if there was anything you did like about the episode?

I thought that, for the most part, it was very well shot (aside from some very obvious mattes of wide views of King's landing that looked like something out of a video game).  Arya's and John's (and everyone else's, to be honest) experience in the streets of King's Landing was visceral and very moving.  I really liked the scenes between Varys and the girl and between Tyrion and Jamie. The destruction of the gate of King's landing was awesome. I thought Circei in the tower and her interactions with Qyburn were very good. Indeed, almost all of the little moments were good; it's just that they were in service of a plot that the writers did not earn and which therefore left them feeling hollow.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 03:14:19 PM
For those that are disappointed I am wondering if there was anything you did like about the episode?

I thought that, for the most part, it was very well shot (aside from some very obvious mattes of wide views of King's landing that looked like something out of a video game).  Arya's and John's (and everyone else's, to be honest) experience in the streets of King's Landing was visceral and very moving.  I really liked the scenes between Varys and the girl and between Tyrion and Jamie. The destruction of the gate of King's landing was awesome. I thought Circei in the tower and her interactions with Qyburn were very good. Indeed, almost all of the little moments were good; it's just that they were in service of a plot that the writers did not earn and which therefore left them feeling hollow.

oh yea, I forgot about Jamie and Tyrion, I teared up a bit during that scene. It was very moving.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 13, 2019, 03:15:30 PM
I was thinking over the episode today at work and started thinking about Qyburn's death.  I mean, not the death itself.  But Cersei tells Gregor to stay, he doesn't.  Qyburn orders him to obey the Queen and gets smashed by the Hulk.  Cersei, in my headcannon, then says "In that case, pardon me gentlemen" and politely excuses herself down the stairs.  I literally chuckled watching that last night.  I don't know what that says about me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 1Pirate on May 13, 2019, 03:46:47 PM
For those that are disappointed I am wondering if there was anything you did like about the episode?

With about one or two seasons more of build-up, I would have liked this episode much better. It was well shot, great visuals and production values. I enjoyed the Sandor/Gregor fight. Oddly, I actually liked Euron’s death. He went down thinking he had a legacy as the father of the next royal child and as the man who killed Jaime Lannister, when in fact he’d been tricked about the former and no one would ever know about the latter. The Jaime and Tyrion scene was good as well.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 05:12:53 PM
I think thats it exactly. The showrunners were offered extra seasons and they declined. They could have even made this season longer if they really wanted.
But they rushed everything and it shows.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 13, 2019, 05:31:46 PM
It would have been so much better if they just fucking quit.  Why did they have to take the show with them?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 13, 2019, 05:34:36 PM
I think thats it exactly. The showrunners were offered extra seasons and they declined. They could have even made this season longer if they really wanted.
But they rushed everything and it shows.

I agree -with more time, they could have come up with better ways to handle things.  I was disappointed by Dany's abandonment of her principles regarding the common folk (I suppose they had to come up with something to eliminate the incestuous relationship between Jon & Dany).  I was also disappointed by the fact that they made Greyworm into a raging monster. Overall, I did enjoy watching it, it just wasn't what I had hoped for.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 13, 2019, 05:42:59 PM
Im sure its more than just the showrunners. Actors don't like long running series and those that do will only do it for more money. You could kill off most of your leads to save money but at that point you have an all new show and that is what they are already doing anyway.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 13, 2019, 05:49:38 PM
Those are all true facts, but it doesnt make the results less rushed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CookieMustard on May 13, 2019, 11:35:46 PM
Next time bring the damn elephants!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 1Pirate on May 14, 2019, 12:25:37 AM
Next time bring the damn elephants!

Interesting note, elephants would probably have made things worse. They were typically not as well disciplined as horses and were notorious for charging back through their own lines when frightened. Pretty sure one pass from Drogon would've sent them stampeding back through the Golden Company.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 14, 2019, 03:50:56 AM
A visual representation of the quality of Game of Thrones through the whole series

(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1557714966i/27497347._SX540_.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 14, 2019, 04:00:06 AM
Im not doubting anyone here because the conversations about the show have always been quite high level and into the lore on this forum.
But there is a shocking number of people I am seeing elsewhere stanning for the show by saying that the mad queen had been teased multiple times in earlier seasons, but I had honestly never heard anyone bring it up until the last couple of episodes.
Im not saying no one brought it up at all (theres a theory for everything). Im saying there are a bunch of people with whom I used to talk GoT with and would talk about how much I hate Dany and they never brought it up and defended her as a champion of the common folk who now say that the current flip is totally in character.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 14, 2019, 06:18:31 AM
Yeesh... Just keeps getting better and better the more people think about it

https://youtu.be/bJkg-p2K3eI
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 14, 2019, 11:26:49 AM
After talking it over with some colleagues, I've refined and clarified my views. For the most part I don't have any major complaints about this episode in itself; I think this episode did a very good job of telling the story it set out to tell, and it was a fabulous spectacle.  The real issue is not this episode; it would have been an excellent finale for the 9th season of GoT.  My issue is that it needed a whole season of development between in the Battle of Winterfell and The Bells, which the show tried unsuccessfully to condense into one 80 minute episode.

I think what we're seeing here is actually three seasons of television trying to be condensed into one.  Season 8 contains the development of Dany's relationship with Jon; her conflicts with the northerners and growing issues between her people and the northerners, and her feeling of isolation and resentment toward them; a plot not shown here involving Circei's consolidation of power, preparations for war, and scheming with Euron and Qyburn; and  the march south of the White Walkers and their skirmishes with and destruction of the north.  It ends with the Battle of Winterfell.

Season 9 contains the revelation of Jon's parentage, his growing conflict with and estrangement from Dany (though he remains loyal), the North being reluctant to follow Dany south, and some houses perhaps refusing (maybe even rejecting Jon for Sansa); extensive plotting by Varys, her growing estrangement from her other advisors and growing dependence on Misendei and Grayworm, further increasingly despotic tendencies which see other houses abandon her until she's left relying on the Dothraki and Unsullied almost exclusively. Perhaps a plot involving Yara and Sansa, maybe developing an alliance with Dorne and the Nights of the Vale. A plot involving The Hound and Arya moving south. It all builds to a climax in The Bells.  In the end, Dany occupies the throne but the seven kingdoms are in revolt. She has estranged everyone but the Dothraki and the Unsullied, with whom she intends to reunite Westeros through conquest.

In Season 10 the rest of the seven kingdoms are united against Dany, and it proceeds in a way that I can't yet forsee.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 14, 2019, 11:53:31 AM
Totally agree.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 14, 2019, 01:35:52 PM
I loved it. Not only that, but I think that after a bit of time months (years?) many detractors will come around to believe this was a perfectly fitting ending.

Many of the complaints have been that the writers didn't contrive an ending where the contrivances resolved disputes.

They way I saw it, the writers put the pieces in place, then let the story unfold as it would (as they imagined it would).

That's how Cerscei and Jamie died. Their characters were caught up in their environment and a contrivance allowing a face to face confrontation with Dany or John would have not been believable, no matter how satisfying.

There were some contrivances (Arya surviving so many deadly situations; Euron and Jamie fighting) but they weren't pivotal or totally unbelievable.

(At this point little girls named Arya are just fine, but little girls named Daenerys, not so much.)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 14, 2019, 01:48:23 PM
Megan, how is your little Khaleesi doing in school this year?  Committed any genocides?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 14, 2019, 02:17:18 PM
Im going to break the wheel by calling my first daughter "The Hound".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 14, 2019, 02:58:10 PM
I loved it. Not only that, but I think that after a bit of time months (years?) many detractors will come around to believe this was a perfectly fitting ending.

Many of the complaints have been that the writers didn't contrive an ending where the contrivances resolved disputes.

They way I saw it, the writers put the pieces in place, then let the story unfold as it would (as they imagined it would).

That's how Cerscei and Jamie died. Their characters were caught up in their environment and a contrivance allowing a face to face confrontation with Dany or John would have not been believable, no matter how satisfying.

There were some contrivances (Arya surviving so many deadly situations; Euron and Jamie fighting) but they weren't pivotal or totally unbelievable.

(At this point little girls named Arya are just fine, but little girls named Daenerys, not so much.)
My main problem is Daenerys main contrivance. As The Lat says, she needed more time to flip out as she did. But the execution and method failed. It was so bad that the majority of the viewers think it was ass-pulled. If you watch the part of the bells you can see it perfectly. She stares at the Red Keep. You can see her desire written in her face (props on acting) that she can't let cercei escape, or get a fair trail. She has to kill cercei right there and then. So she lunges straight for the red Keep, And half way there she turns around and burns half the city. Has her insanity reached those loony proportions where she will forget the sole purpose of her turning insane to go do something else?

It was  foreshadowed that she would become the villain, but it was contrived in the way that the show needed her not only to be a villain but to be the most despised and hated villain. Forget being a grey villain like the Cercei or Roose Bolton. Lets have her kick the puppy along with Ramsey and Euron. At least these two made sense that they kick puppies.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 14, 2019, 03:02:34 PM
Even her on that tower with the bells ringing I flashed back to the scene earlier in the episode.  "Let it be fear then".  She believes she can never be loved by the people of Westeros so she will have to make them too afraid to ever challenge her.  She has to make an example of a city that defies her...that kills something she loves.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 14, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
I'm starting to think Daenerys will win, John and the Starks will rebel and she kills them all or similar.  The mad Queen takes the throne, end of story.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 14, 2019, 04:16:22 PM
My prediction for next week.

Jon kills Dany to save Westeros from her madness.
Arya kills Grey Worm to save Jon
Jon refuses the throne and goes to live beyond the wall with Ghost.
Gendry becomes King of Westeros.
Sansa becomes Queen of the North.
Tyrion gives Bronn Casterly Rock, instead of Highgarden.
Brienne finally warms to Tormund's advances.
Bran continues being weird.
Sam returns to Oldtown and starts writing "A Song of Ice and Fire"
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 14, 2019, 04:23:36 PM
I'm starting to think Daenerys will win, John and the Starks will rebel and she kills them all or similar.  The mad Queen takes the throne, end of story.

I think that Sansa, Jon and Arya will be in a position to kill Dany, but they won't, instead they'll become pacifists and be holding hands while singing the Westros equivalent of Cumbya as the end credits roll. And all the dead characters will reappear wearing tuxes and smiling and applauding.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 14, 2019, 04:59:58 PM
Which actors do we think are the biggest winners out of this show overall?
Momoa, somehow, inexplicably seems to be the stand out?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 14, 2019, 05:26:11 PM
Probably Lena Headey for me.  Just consistently great throughout.  Dinklage has been great.  Charles Dance for the little time he had. 




Wait, were you talking about best performances, or biggest winner in the idea of biggest change of career path?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 14, 2019, 05:33:52 PM
I predict that they will all have been dead, and that Westeros is really some sort of a purgatory, just like the island in Lost.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 14, 2019, 05:36:42 PM
As far as the actors go, Peter Dinkledge, Kit Harington and Maisie Williams.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 14, 2019, 07:22:00 PM

The anger of ‘Game of Thrones’ fans is part of the game - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-game-of-thrones-fan-reaction-20190514-story.html)
Quote
I will still consider it the greatest show ever — just look at all the triumph and despair we’ve experienced, the outrage and elation. Look at all the great conversations we’ve had about so many things.

That’s the real, and best, game in “Game of Thrones.”
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 14, 2019, 09:34:32 PM
And people are way more involved and interested in US politics since Trump was elected, but I'd still rather that not have happened. Seriously, who wishes for the cloud just so they can have the silver lining besides Thanos?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 14, 2019, 11:09:29 PM
Probably Lena Headey for me.  Just consistently great throughout.  Dinklage has been great.  Charles Dance for the little time he had. 




Wait, were you talking about best performances, or biggest winner in the idea of biggest change of career path?
Career.
But both are interesting questions imo.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 15, 2019, 03:10:20 AM
No-one has mentioned Sophie Turner (Sansa). Like Jason Mamoa she has gone from nothing to being the title star of a blockbuster.

Dark Phoenix is out next month. She is Jean Gray/Dark Phoenix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W0teWwq5wg
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 15, 2019, 03:27:34 AM
Lena Headey was earning 1 million USD per episode this season and all she had to do is to drink wine and look out of a window, that is as good as it gets as far as a career goes.


I really would not list Kit Harington as a winner. Yes, he was unknown before, but all he got out of fame so far was a few awful B-movies and playing a minor character in the How to Train Your Dragon sequels.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tatyana on May 15, 2019, 03:43:08 AM
Lena Headey was earning 1 million USD per episode this season and all she had to do is to drink wine and look out of a window, that is as good as it gets as far as a career goes.


I really would not list Kit Harington as a winner. Yes, he was unknown before, but all he got out of fame so far was a few awful B-movies and playing a minor character in the How to Train Your Dragon sequels.

Success for British actors is not always mainstream Hollywood.........

https://www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/game-of-thrones-stars-stage-kit-maisie_47662.html
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 15, 2019, 06:16:11 AM
Lena Headey was earning 1 million USD per episode this season and all she had to do is to drink wine and look out of a window, that is as good as it gets as far as a career goes.


I really would not list Kit Harington as a winner. Yes, he was unknown before, but all he got out of fame so far was a few awful B-movies and playing a minor character in the How to Train Your Dragon sequels.

Success for British actors is not always mainstream Hollywood.........

https://www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/game-of-thrones-stars-stage-kit-maisie_47662.html
One thing I am really happy about is that the show has put in the spotlight many actors without the traditional southern UK accents that one associates with prominent British performers . I think it has actually broken some class barriers in that respect.

It is a bit sad to me that one of the worst actors who had barely any lines is now the one whose kids will never need to work.
On the other hand, Pedro Pascal will be forever beloved!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 15, 2019, 06:50:51 AM
Richard Madden (Rob Stark) got that starring role in Bodyguard.  I thought he did a great job in it. 


As far as risen star goes though, yeah, it's Mamoa and/or Turner.  It's done good for other as far as level of fame goes, but those two have gone from unknown to fronting blockbuster movies.  Of course, you could argue that it's a bigger jump for Turner than Mamoa since he had a career before this show in Stargate and other things, and she was a child.


I'm looking forward to Pascal's new endeavor at the end of this year.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: mindme on May 15, 2019, 07:56:07 AM
Someone pointed out to me if I thought this was going to be a story about good people fixing a broken culture, I was wrong. I thought Tyrian would marry Dany (uniting their houses) and Rob would be King of the North. But, huh, now I'm thinking Dany realizes no one loves her in Westros. She could have ruled fairly and been loved on Essos and maybe with her remaining dragon and forces she can return and do good there.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 15, 2019, 08:02:49 AM
I worry that if X-Men bombs it may be the end of Turner as a big budget star. Women tend to get far fewer chances than men in that regard.

I wouldnt mind seeing Dany go back to her other kingdoms. I wonder if her steward would be so happy to see her return?
After such crazy war crimes though, some people might find it unsatisfying?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 15, 2019, 08:10:58 AM
Yeah, not only do female actors get far fewer chances, female led movie categories get far fewer.  Look at how long it took to get a female lead in a superhero flick.  Everyone just kept pointing out that Catwoman and Electra bombed.  Nobody mentioned that Daredevil and most of the Batman movies of that era also sucked and yet we kept filming male leads in superhero flicks.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 15, 2019, 11:15:04 AM
I guess it's hard for me to think of Momoa as being an unknown, having known him from Stargate Atlantis.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 15, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
Let's not forget Emilia Clarke. She's had a few large movies herself and was pretty unknown before GOT
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Ah.hell on May 15, 2019, 01:16:00 PM
Is there really any question as to who's star has risen most as a result of GOT?  Peter Dinklage easily.  He's now just a great actor you want in your movie not just a actor who plays midgets and dwarfs.  He's now getting roles(bolivar trask)  where being a dwarf isn't important.  Maybe the first dwarf in movie history to do that. 

Honorable Mention to Sophie Turner and Emilie Clarke but they are both decent actors who are also very good looking women who probably would have had success regardless of GOT. 

Jason Momoa was gonna be an action star regardless.

Lena Headey had a career before and after.  Granted, nothing like the money she's making from this but as an actress, I don't think it impacted her career much.

The rest of the Stark Children, will see but I think only Harrington has a chance of a big bump on account of GOT.  The rest may or may not have decent careers but I don't think GOT will have much impact. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 15, 2019, 02:47:17 PM
Peter Dinklage was a bigger star (so to speak) than any cast member, but Sean Bean.

The show helped them both, but I’d say it helped others more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 15, 2019, 05:37:23 PM
I think Emilia Clarke has been very let down by some shockingly bad scripts.
Again, once Hollywood finds a new muse of the month I think she will struggle to find leading roles.

I dont see Momoa as a given. He has charisma but on paper there are other actors with better action and acting chops who have failed.
It will be interesting to see how he fares post Aquaman.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 15, 2019, 11:05:32 PM
I like Momoa, but I honestly don't think he makes a great leading man.  I think he's best as a side-character.  Aquaman was fine, but didn't really blow me away.  Totally agree about Clarke getting signed on with some pretty bad scripts.  I'd love to see her in something more original.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 16, 2019, 03:25:27 AM
This is a really good take on Dany's downfall and the shitty writing behind it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mlNyqhnc1M
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 16, 2019, 10:03:30 AM
Lena Headey was earning 1 million USD per episode this season and all she had to do is to drink wine and look out of a window, that is as good as it gets as far as a career goes.


I really would not list Kit Harington as a winner. Yes, he was unknown before, but all he got out of fame so far was a few awful B-movies and playing a minor character in the How to Train Your Dragon sequels.

Success for British actors is not always mainstream Hollywood.........

https://www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/game-of-thrones-stars-stage-kit-maisie_47662.html
One thing I am really happy about is that the show has put in the spotlight many actors without the traditional southern UK accents that one associates with prominent British performers . I think it has actually broken some class barriers in that respect.

It is a bit sad to me that one of the worst actors who had barely any lines is now the one whose kids will never need to work.
On the other hand, Pedro Pascal will be forever beloved!

I heard an interview with Kit Harrington, where he said the producers wanted Ned Stark to speak with a unique accent rather than his native accent, and Sean Bean said "No, I'm not going to do that." So all the cast members whose characters were Starks had to approximate Sean Bean's Yorkshire accent.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 16, 2019, 10:58:41 AM
They are all northern so its not difficult for them at all.
Getting a southerner to do that accent would be tough and vice versa.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Ah.hell on May 16, 2019, 12:43:54 PM
Regarding Dany, didn't we all know she was going to do a heel turn at some point? 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 16, 2019, 01:45:39 PM
Regarding Dany, didn't we all know she was going to do a heel turn at some point?

I think once it was revealed that she's Jon's aunt, she or Jon were toast - one way or the other.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 16, 2019, 02:30:55 PM
Regarding Dany, didn't we all know she was going to do a heel turn at some point?
Did we? I didnt see much discussion of it when people were predicting who would sit on the throne a season or two ago.

And if one suspected then there was always the possibility they would subvert the arc as they did with Jaime.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 16, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
I suspected it.  I didn't put a ton of weight on it until after last season.  I don't know what strengthened my thoughts on it, but I thought the odds were pretty good she would turn.  I wouldn't have bet my house on it, but I wouldn't have bet against it either.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 16, 2019, 03:05:18 PM
Mad Dany has been a theory for a while, especially from the books (from what I recall) as they do a lot more leg work in setting her up.  The show didn't do the proper legwork IMO.  Like the video said, foreshadowing is not character development and absolutely nothing has happened to turn the Dany that was devastated over Drogon killing a little girl a few seasons back into someone that would kill them by the thousands.  I was thinking about it a bit and I know the show runners said that they made a conscious decision to focus on the carnage at the ground level in order to show the true cost of her actions, but while I agree that shouldn't have been ignored, I think they made a huge mistake in not showing us Dany's face while she did this.  This is THE defining moment of her character's life, earned by the story thus far or not, and to not see how it changed her and how she was behaving during it really does her a disservice.  It's almost as if they couldn't think of a way to present her doing this that felt right so they decided not to and called the decision "an artistic choice."
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 16, 2019, 03:13:43 PM
Yeah, it was rushed.  Also, during the episode when Jon decided he wasn't going to give her the "Dick Of The North" anymore, and her response was "Let it be fear then"...I was sold on the Mad Queen theory.  I just don't buy D&D's "in that moment" explanation from the after-show.  I felt like Dany knew she needed the people to well and truly fear her because they will never accept/love her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 16, 2019, 05:24:14 PM
Im totally sold on the mad queen thing.
Its not like any real mental illness I know of but this is fiction so fine.

Im just not sold at all on the meticulously mass murdering hundreds of people while your enemy sits right in front of you queen. She was basically playing Pac Man with those people.
There was zero progression to that point and something less bombastic could have had the same plot effect.

Bear in mind we saw this through the eyes of a woman who baked her enemys children into a pie and fed them to him. We didnt think she was going to be anything less than a (or the) hero.
The tarlys was no more a sign of this kind of turn than Ned Stark beheading a terrified deserter was in episode one.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 16, 2019, 05:32:32 PM
The worst is the writers' explanation for the moment she chose to do it. They said that in that moment, she decided to make it "personal.". What's personal about slaughtering thousands that are barely aware you exist?! Personal would have been flying to Cersei and melting her face off. Personal would have been destroying the Red Keep. Personal would have been her facing down the surrendering armies and burning them anyway. Why's she suddenly mad at the small folk?!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 16, 2019, 05:54:18 PM
Im pretty sure they regret the choice and just want done with it all, but nothing they say about the show can be assumed to be true while they are under contract to promote it.
If they really did have strong negative feelings, they could no more tell us about them than a customer service rep can badmouth their company.
 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 17, 2019, 04:35:27 AM
(https://i.redd.it/o7p9djfrpky21.jpg)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 17, 2019, 06:18:31 AM
Ah Euron.
The improbably great warrior who stormed onto ships cleaving pirates in half.
Lost a fist fight with a one fisted man. Who was established as being a useless warrior without his right hand.

Such writing! Very plot.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 17, 2019, 08:49:52 AM
Im totally sold on the mad queen thing.
Its not like any real mental illness I know of but this is fiction so fine.

Im just not sold at all on the meticulously mass murdering hundreds of people while your enemy sits right in front of you queen. She was basically playing Pac Man with those people.
There was zero progression to that point and something less bombastic could have had the same plot effect.

Bear in mind we saw this through the eyes of a woman who baked her enemys children into a pie and fed them to him. We didnt think she was going to be anything less than a (or the) hero.
The tarlys was no more a sign of this kind of turn than Ned Stark beheading a terrified deserter was in episode one.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The scene with the bells and dany on Drogon, That turning point for her, the breaking point. Everything in that scene, the acting, the mood, even her and Cercei's back and forth. It all pointed for her to go straight to Cersei and she even did. Drogon clearly was flying straight for the red keep. 


At least I can now distinguish which dragon is which.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: moj on May 17, 2019, 09:34:09 AM
Im totally sold on the mad queen thing.
Its not like any real mental illness I know of but this is fiction so fine.

Im just not sold at all on the meticulously mass murdering hundreds of people while your enemy sits right in front of you queen. She was basically playing Pac Man with those people.
There was zero progression to that point and something less bombastic could have had the same plot effect.

Bear in mind we saw this through the eyes of a woman who baked her enemys children into a pie and fed them to him. We didnt think she was going to be anything less than a (or the) hero.
The tarlys was no more a sign of this kind of turn than Ned Stark beheading a terrified deserter was in episode one.

We re-watched all the seasons leading up to season 8 and picked up on a lot more of the foreshadowing than the first time through. There is a lot of hinting that Dany could flip, that her family has a long dark history of bloodlust, and that you never really know what they will do. The show in general likes to go places people assume it won't. The red wedding was a big dark surprise that afterwards seems inevitable. I  though there was about a 50/50 chance she would do something like this. Martin and this show love to take people to darker places than you think they will. This is no different and suspect as time goes on people will not see this as a shocking move on Dany's part.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 17, 2019, 09:44:30 AM
Now there's a fan theory that she was heading straight to the Red Keep, but Bran warged into Drogon and started spraying the city.  She would be powerless to stop him and we never see her face after she starts heading towards the tower.


No idea why they think Bran would want to kill Kings Landing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 17, 2019, 09:44:49 AM
Im totally sold on the mad queen thing.
Its not like any real mental illness I know of but this is fiction so fine.

Im just not sold at all on the meticulously mass murdering hundreds of people while your enemy sits right in front of you queen. She was basically playing Pac Man with those people.
There was zero progression to that point and something less bombastic could have had the same plot effect.

Bear in mind we saw this through the eyes of a woman who baked her enemys children into a pie and fed them to him. We didnt think she was going to be anything less than a (or the) hero.
The tarlys was no more a sign of this kind of turn than Ned Stark beheading a terrified deserter was in episode one.

We re-watched all the seasons leading up to season 8 and picked up on a lot more of the foreshadowing than the first time through. There is a lot of hinting that Dany could flip, that her family has a long dark history of bloodlust, and that you never really know what they will do. The show in general likes to go places people assume it won't. The red wedding was a big dark surprise that afterwards seems inevitable. I  though there was about a 50/50 chance she would do something like this. Martin and this show love to take people to darker places than you think they will. This is no different and suspect as time goes on people will not see this as a shocking move on Dany's part.

There is also a lot of stuff foreshadowing that she would be a kind ruler who abhors mass murder.

The Red Wedding was a surprise, but the road leading up to it is crystal clear and the mistakes Robb Stark are obvious. It was a surprising, but logical consequence of the events depicted on the show.

Yes, Dany did kill people and did show bloodlust before. However, there was no indication whatsoever that she would show up to a city she has never seen and then burn it to the ground after it surrenders, incinerating hundreds of thousands of people for no discerneable reason. There was no buildup, no clear line of events, just some ambiguous foreshadowing.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 17, 2019, 09:51:52 AM
Im totally sold on the mad queen thing.
Its not like any real mental illness I know of but this is fiction so fine.

Im just not sold at all on the meticulously mass murdering hundreds of people while your enemy sits right in front of you queen. She was basically playing Pac Man with those people.
There was zero progression to that point and something less bombastic could have had the same plot effect.

Bear in mind we saw this through the eyes of a woman who baked her enemys children into a pie and fed them to him. We didnt think she was going to be anything less than a (or the) hero.
The tarlys was no more a sign of this kind of turn than Ned Stark beheading a terrified deserter was in episode one.

We re-watched all the seasons leading up to season 8 and picked up on a lot more of the foreshadowing than the first time through. There is a lot of hinting that Dany could flip, that her family has a long dark history of bloodlust, and that you never really know what they will do. The show in general likes to go places people assume it won't. The red wedding was a big dark surprise that afterwards seems inevitable. I  though there was about a 50/50 chance she would do something like this. Martin and this show love to take people to darker places than you think they will. This is no different and suspect as time goes on people will not see this as a shocking move on Dany's part.
The problem is not that it as foreshadowed. It's that it make little sense the way it was depicted. You can blame Rob for the red wedding. You can blame Ned Stark for loosing his head. But who do you blame for Dany loosing hers? Is it pure insanity that made her forget her hatred towards Cercei and go for the people? I can absolutely buy that she can go all crazy and kill the innocents, if it will gain her an upper hand, which is what she has always done and what all the foreshadowing been doing. But on this situation, there is absolutely nothing to be gain and it interrupts the flow of the narrative, aka her going after cercei, to shock the audience.
It was the same with Rhaegal dying. It was only done to shock the audience and to give Dany a motivation to attack. But they way they did it was lazy writing by having the most brilliant minds in westeros and half of the iron fleet, forget that the other half of the iron fleet was a risk, and said huge fleet was invisible from a flying danerys, until they shot the dragon, even when they were in range of the Dany's fleet.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 17, 2019, 10:01:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGUNqq3jVLg

There are a lot of "And Then" in this last two episodes.

And then Jaime has to fight Euron.

When looking at the the pivotal scene of the bells, you can see:

The bells ring, but (good)
Dany become mad at the thought of cercei not getting her comeuppances, And Then (if you but Therefore here, it makes no sense)
Dany kills innocents.

Curiously you could have fixed it by having Dany being unable to reach the red keep by some plot device or whatever, therefore Dany has to rely on attacking the city so that the red keep gives up and opens up to her.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 17, 2019, 10:28:51 AM
By the time the attack on Kings Landing began Nearly everyone Dany has been close to or relied on for advice or support has either betrayed her or died.

Her claim to the throne has been undermined in a way that also cost her her lover and confidant.

She said she wanted to rule based on love rather than fear but that wasn’t working out.

If the goal is it rule by fear she had to give the people something to be afraid of.






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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 17, 2019, 10:36:21 AM
By the time the attack on Kings Landing began Nearly everyone Dany has been close to or relied on for advice or support has either betrayed her or died.

Her claim to the throne has been undermined in a way that also cost her her lover and confidant.

She said she wanted to rule based on love rather than fear but that wasn’t working out.

If the goal is it rule by fear she had to give the people something to be afraid of.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ruling by fear is not genocide. Dragons, Dothraki an Unsullied already cause plenty of fear, so does Drogon flying over the city and roasting the Red Keep, with Cersei and all.

On the other hand, dead people are not afraid of anyone.

Not to mention how all those deaths and betrayals were ridiculously contrived and about as believable as Hot Pie being crowned king.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 17, 2019, 10:39:16 AM
By the time the attack on Kings Landing began Nearly everyone Dany has been close to or relied on for advice or support has either betrayed her or died.

Her claim to the throne has been undermined in a way that also cost her her lover and confidant.

She said she wanted to rule based on love rather than fear but that wasn’t working out.

If the goal is it rule by fear she had to give the people something to be afraid of.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ruling by fear is not genocide. Dragons, Dothraki an Unsullied already cause plenty of fear, so does Drogon flying over the city and roasting the Red Keep, with Cersei and all.

On the other hand, dead people are not afraid of anyone.

Not to mention how all those deaths and betrayals were ridiculously contrived and about as believable as Hot Pie being crowned king.
This.

I can understand her wanting to rule by fear. But rulers, and she knows it, don't make the common folk fear you. They make the nobles and those in the power to oppose you fear you. Hence why I am not complaining about her being ruthless to her enemies and her roasting Varys.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Ah.hell on May 17, 2019, 10:40:16 AM
I can understand her wanting to rule by fear. But rulers, and she knows it, don't make the common folk fear you. They make the nobles and those in the power to oppose you fear you. Hence why I am not complaining about her being ruthless to her enemies and her roasting Varys.
Its like she'd never read the Prince.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 17, 2019, 10:44:28 AM

I can understand her wanting to rule by fear. But rulers, and she knows it, don't make the common folk fear you. They make the nobles and those in the power to oppose you fear you. Hence why I am not complaining about her being ruthless to her enemies and her roasting Varys.

She doesn’t want to rule by fear.

She wants to rule.

She’d prefer love and respect but has to settle for fear.




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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: moj on May 17, 2019, 10:45:53 AM
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1129150700167077891
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 17, 2019, 10:47:32 AM
Let's not forget that this is the same series where Cersei's popularity was not affected in any way by her blowing up their Vatican, killing their belowed queen, extremely popular religious leader, the flower of the nobility and a few thousand other people.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 17, 2019, 10:51:19 AM
You know someone like a Westeros version of Karl Rove could spin it that Dany had to destroy the city to free the people.

It was for their own good.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 17, 2019, 10:58:10 AM
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1129150700167077891

This is complete bullshit and arrogant as fuck. I'm perfectly fine with an ending, and I'd be perfectly fine with THIS ending if the story were successfully told. The problem is that Dany's actions just weren't sold, as evidenced by the fact that so many people didn't buy them. If, as a story teller, people don't buy your story, that's a failure on your part, not a failure on theirs.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: moj on May 17, 2019, 11:02:42 AM
meh, most of them are the same people who have been hating on everything about this show for the last season. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm surprised people are surprised buy it. To me most of it comes like like this gif

(https://media.giphy.com/media/cgwZU78AWSHXq/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Ah.hell on May 17, 2019, 11:29:59 AM
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1129150700167077891
That's exactly what the guy who wrote the ending to the Dark Tower would say. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: PANTS! on May 17, 2019, 11:37:23 AM
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1129150700167077891
That's exactly what the guy who wrote the ending to the Dark Tower would say.

I love the guy, but it is widely accepted that Stephen King is shit at endings.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 17, 2019, 02:21:33 PM
meh, most of them are the same people who have been hating on everything about this show for the last season. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm surprised people are surprised buy it. To me most of it comes like like this gif

At least most of the people I've been talking to like the show and even liked the episodes but still have strong feelings about the way the season has been executed.  They are expressing thoughtful criticisms rather than knee-jerk reactions.  To dismiss them as 'haters' is, in my opinion, very unjust.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 17, 2019, 05:19:42 PM
https://twitter.com/StephenKing/status/1129150700167077891
That's exactly what the guy who wrote the ending to the Dark Tower would say.

Exactly what I was going to say.

The man who wrote the 'fuck you for wanting an ending' ending to The Dark Tower would enjoy all this controversy  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 17, 2019, 09:17:20 PM
meh, most of them are the same people who have been hating on everything about this show for the last season. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm surprised people are surprised buy it. To me most of it comes like like this gif

(https://media.giphy.com/media/cgwZU78AWSHXq/giphy.gif)

Personally, my approach to their lazy story-telling over the last few seasons was that it was disappointing and sloppy and lazy, but I can move past it and just accept the unearned character developments and time travel and plot holes if it leads to great moments for characters and of action, but so far this season has mostly only given the latter at the expense of the former
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 18, 2019, 02:17:59 PM
Its true though. Haters ARE going to hate.
Unless its well written, well paced and delivers believable character development.

 Then not so much.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 18, 2019, 11:32:52 PM
This is probably the most clear-headed take on "Bells" I've seen yet.  Can't find much to disagree with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlrVwsWWSk&t=0s
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 19, 2019, 12:49:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmk4kxdxuM4
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 19, 2019, 11:02:04 AM
Ultimately, how I feel about Danaerys’ fall is very similar to how I feel about the fall of Anakin in Revenge of the Sith: in neither case do I think the filmmakers sold the fall.  It wasn’t adequately motivated, and so it just can’t work for me.  In both cases the films are well made, there’s nothing wrong with the premise, and there’s exciting action that makes it a fun ride. But ultimately they can never be great because the one thing above all others that they had to do was convince me that this character would fall in this way, and they failed to do that.

I know that some people buy it.  Perhaps they’re more willing to fill in the blanks for the filmmakers than I am.  Or perhaps they’re less invested in character development.  Whatever the difference, it’s a fundamental one which I cannot get past.  I can intellectually understand what the filmmakers were going for, but if I don’t feel it when I watch it on the screen, then the film has failed in a fundamental way to do what it set out to do.

I envy those who buy it, to be honest.  But I’m not one of them, and I cannot be.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 19, 2019, 12:42:12 PM
Whatever happens tonight I'm going to sit back and enjoy the show.  This has been a massive accomplishment if not the greatest accomplishment in TV history and I have enjoyed every moment of it even if I did not always agree with the direction it took.

I'm excited and counting down the shows until the ending tonight.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 19, 2019, 12:48:38 PM
I'm also very excited to see the ending, regardless of how I have felt about the show for the last 2 years.

I dont think there is any outcome that I wouldn't be satisfied with as a way to finish the story. Im pretty sure there will be something minor in the episode to bug me as we get there but thats nothing new.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 19, 2019, 02:37:54 PM
I feel like they've already screwed up both climaxes that the show has been building to since episode so I'm not really expecting to be much more let down than I already am.  I'm just hoping for it not to feel rushed and for the emotions to feel genuine.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 19, 2019, 04:09:43 PM
I feel like they've already screwed up both climaxes that the show has been building to since episode so I'm not really expecting to be much more let down than I already am.  I'm just hoping for it not to feel rushed and for the emotions to feel genuine.
We rushed to get here, but we are here now. I dont think theres many more leaps they could make or feel the need to make.
I intend to watch with the pretence that we had an extra season or so to fill everything out more organically.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 19, 2019, 04:20:11 PM
As much as I have been disappointed by the rushed and clumsy last 2 seasons, at least we are going to see an ending.

There is no guarantee I or George will live long enough to see the 'real' end of the story in print. I doubt it will finish in 2 more books. At the rate he is going, George will be in his mid to high 80s when he finishes.

We know the book is going to be different. Sansa might not get the power position she got in the show. Benioff and Weiss upgraded her role to fill the role that Lady Stoneheart will play in the books.

I realise George has been involved in the direction the TV show has taken, but no writer gives away all their secrets.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 19, 2019, 09:14:10 PM
Can’t watch until my kids get to sleep, so I thought I’d post my final predictions:

1. Dany executes Tyrion.
2. Dany is poisoned by Martha.
3. John Snow fucks off to the North.
4. Sansa rules as Queen of the North.
5. Gendry rules as king in the south.
6. Arya leaves Westeros.
7. The final shot is of Craster’s son, the new Night King.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 19, 2019, 10:52:04 PM
Can’t watch until my kids get to sleep, so I thought I’d post my final predictions:

1. Dany executes Tyrion.
2. Dany is poisoned by Martha.
3. John Snow fucks off to the North.
4. Sansa rules as Queen of the North.
5. Gendry rules as king in the south.
6. Arya leaves Westeros.
7. The final shot is of Craster’s son, the new Night King.

3 out of 7

wow, still processing, I liked it for sure.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Belgarath on May 19, 2019, 11:39:02 PM
I liked that the ending wasn't the traditional 'Hero wins everything'

Although, I have this nagging sense that the writers were thinking 'Hmmm, How can we make FIVE spinoffs work......'

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 19, 2019, 11:46:08 PM
Yep.  I’ll count the hits and ignore the misses, though, as is the privilege of every prognosticator.

I enjoyed the finale.  A few things were a little heavy-handed, I thought, but it wrapped things up about as well as could be expected given where we stood at the end of The Bells. In fact, Tyrion even managed through his words to Jon to make her actions last episode just a little bit more believable in retrospect (which of course is not how such things should be accomplished).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 20, 2019, 12:27:34 AM
Watching now.

Just got to Brann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkGsZ-qJ7uU
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 20, 2019, 12:35:43 AM
Overall, it was a very satisfying ending.  I mean, there was no way it was going to be a battle with Dany because she'd crush anyone and there was no way it was going to be too long before she died because the episode was barely over an hour.  Sure, they could have benefited from a longer episode or more episodes, but this was the first episode I didn't feel was overly truncated.

Beyond all that, I thought where we ended up felt right.  There were some things to nit pick, but nothing that was so wrong it took me out of the episode, except maybe Bran revealing that he knew this was going to happen the whole time, though that kinda does make his aloofness leading up to this make more sense.

As for spin-offs, the only one I am really expecting is "West of Westeros."  That's the only one that seemed super obvious.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 20, 2019, 01:16:15 AM
The writing was hit or miss but everything else was rad.  The world domination speech felt like a different show entirely but one would I would 100% watch.

If there's spin-offs, I hope they go full sci-fi with Bran's narrative.  He's basically a combination alien-benevolent monarch.  As someone who's watched a great many episodes of The Outer Limits, there's so many directions they could go with this.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 1Pirate on May 20, 2019, 02:28:09 AM
As a finale for season 9, I thought it was excellent.

As is, I enjoyed it, but again, needed way more set-up.

I think the spin-offs are going to be prequels, maybe the Dunk and Egg stories, or maybe something around the early Targaryen reign.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 20, 2019, 03:51:44 AM
This episode was much better than I expected it to me. I mean that it wasn't a complete shitshow.

That being said, it was mostly unearned, occasionally bafflingly stupid (Why exactly is Tyrion, the prisioner, establishing the new form of government, King Bran the robot, Bronn the Master of Coins, Drogon burining the Iron Throne, no doubt motivated by his innate sense of symbolism, etc) and generally unfulfilling.

At least it is over.

The Small Council meeting really sounded like the Model UN from community
https://youtu.be/oPzDI1DBOK0?t=69
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 20, 2019, 05:04:02 AM
A lot of unearned indulgences and winks to the audience.

Generally pretty good though.

Watching it, I found it helpful to think of Dany as not suddenly having gone 'mad' but that she had been a manipulative psycho with this in mind all along. It makes what happened far less of a jump and adds some weight to the twist.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Tassie Dave on May 20, 2019, 06:14:56 AM
I'll give the writers a pass (just) for the finish. Everything was still too rushed and deserved more story, but they didn't completely fumble the ball.

I still want to read the real ending. Hopefully before I die of old age  ;D

My prediction for next week.

Jon kills Dany to save Westeros from her madness.
Arya kills Grey Worm to save Jon
Jon refuses the throne and goes to live beyond the wall with Ghost.
Gendry becomes King of Westeros.
Sansa becomes Queen of the North.
Tyrion gives Bronn Casterly Rock, instead of Highgarden.
Brienne finally warms to Tormund's advances.
Bran continues being weird.
Sam returns to Oldtown and starts writing "A Song of Ice and Fire"

I'll give myself 4½ out of 9. ½ a point for Sam helping to name the book  ;)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 20, 2019, 07:40:44 AM
OMG!!That book bit!
I dont know that I have ever groaned harder.
They winked so hard at the audience in the back half of this that I do feel I may have a claim for harrassment.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 20, 2019, 07:49:39 AM
I would bet money that the book was in Martin's plans, not from D&D.  It's essentially There and Back Again by Bilbo Baggins.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 20, 2019, 09:31:37 AM
How about, "And you, council memeber; we need to solve X insurmountable problem with no solution. Can you solve it?"

"Yes. I can solve it."

"Good."

Also,why does King's Landing and the Red Keep look totally untouched for every scene after Dany dies? For that matter, why does Winter end right then too?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 20, 2019, 09:59:05 AM
For that matter, why does Winter end right then too?

That wasn’t snow, it was ash from the burning of the city. And every scene after her death took place weeks or months later, after the fires we’re out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 20, 2019, 10:03:33 AM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: PANTS! on May 20, 2019, 10:14:37 AM
https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 20, 2019, 10:54:29 AM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

Are those natural winters? Or supernatural?

And if they're supernatural, with the NK dead, is the wall going to melt?  Is the North going to double in size?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 20, 2019, 11:01:19 AM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.

Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 20, 2019, 12:50:11 PM
I agree that its ash.
I think winter ended when the night king died.

No supernatural explanation for the Unsullieds deep voices as yet though.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 20, 2019, 12:55:05 PM
Once again I really enjoyed how it ended.

I have a few minor questions but its stuff I can live with.

for instance:

What is the point of a Night Watch now?  No Night King and the wildlings are friends now.

I'm assuming Daario Naharis is now king of Meereen? I would have to guess he would not stand for the killing of his queen and will probably do something about it. I would have liked to see his character one more time at the end with the others. Dorn was represented.


As to the Ash/Snow I think it was both, it was ash early then snow later in the episode to show how time has passed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 20, 2019, 12:56:53 PM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.

Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

So I saw an interview with one of the writing team where they explained that they had a very specific and detailed calendar throughout the series, where they accounted for travel times and every event that unfolded during the series. And then when anything happened off screen that accounted for a long period of time they applied that to everything on screen and made sure they had on screen clues (the ages of children; the growth of plants; in this case it would be beards). Every time people complained that things happened instantly, they were simply leaping forward by x days/weeks/months.

They wanted to avoid having to display titles saying "Six Weeks Later" on screen.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Nosmas on May 20, 2019, 12:57:15 PM
Ultimately, how I feel about Danaerys’ fall is very similar to how I feel about the fall of Anakin in Revenge of the Sith: in neither case do I think the filmmakers sold the fall.  It wasn’t adequately motivated, and so it just can’t work for me.  In both cases the films are well made, there’s nothing wrong with the premise, and there’s exciting action that makes it a fun ride. But ultimately they can never be great because the one thing above all others that they had to do was convince me that this character would fall in this way, and they failed to do that.

I know that some people buy it.  Perhaps they’re more willing to fill in the blanks for the filmmakers than I am.  Or perhaps they’re less invested in character development.  Whatever the difference, it’s a fundamental one which I cannot get past.  I can intellectually understand what the filmmakers were going for, but if I don’t feel it when I watch it on the screen, then the film has failed in a fundamental way to do what it set out to do.

I envy those who buy it, to be honest.  But I’m not one of them, and I cannot be.

I immediately thought of Revenge of the Sith as well after episode 5 of GOT. I very much like the idea if Danaerys becoming a mad queen but it was way too rushed and I wasn't buying how they tried to sell it. If I had to describe GOT last too seasons in a single word it would be "rushed".

I actually just finished the series finale. Didn't love it. I kind of like John ending the story with the wildlings north of the wall, but I'm not a fan of Bran being king. I mean, I guess he has knowledge on his side but think of all the other things you want in a ruler. Charisma? None. Projecting strength? He can't even walk and he's extremely young. Known by the people? Nope. The idea of him being king just didnt feel convincing to me.

I didn't mind the scene where Danaerys dies. I was expecting John to do it eventually... but not in that scene. What bugged me the most was his lack of focusing on her burning civilians when confronting her. It's like to him killing the soldiers and imprisoning Tyrion were the things she had to explain.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 20, 2019, 03:54:02 PM
Again, I liked it well enough. It was fine.

To touch on some random points from above:

- I doubt Dario will give a shit. If anything, her being gone gives him more power.

-Bran was a shit choice but whatever. What I cant understand is having Bronn on the small council. Wtf?! He is just there for laughs.

-The nights watch makes sense in order to patrol and watch for threats on the border. And as a dumping ground for disgraced nobles.

-If they are saying that some scenes are skipping months then they are overlooking Cerceis weird pregnancy.  If they meant it to be something that was communicated to the audience, they did a terrible, terrible job of it. Its not an easter egg for those interested enough to revisit every scene and notice different weather or whatever, its a vital component that left the majority of viewers confused and stopped the story from working as it should have.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 20, 2019, 08:00:17 PM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 20, 2019, 08:22:28 PM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.
They did imply that.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 20, 2019, 11:42:43 PM
I'm not sure all that's the case, but differences of opinion aside, this is a world where winters last years

You're not sure what's the case? That it was ash that was falling? I think that was made abundantly clear both in this episode and the last.


Watch the scene when Drogon shakes it off again.  It is clearly snowing and not just ash falling.


Or are you unsure that it was several weeks at least between the death of Dany and the following scene?  Look at Tyrion's beard; they clearly establish through it that he's been in that cell for weeks if not months. The same for Jon's beard, later.  Not to mention that Sansa has had time to travel from Winterfell to Kings Landing, a journey of several weeks, and the lords of Westeros have had time to assemble massive armies outside of the city.

That's true, I forgot about the beards.  Still, unless they are implying that winter (or years long winters at least) was a product of the Night King, it still seems a bit short.
They did imply that.

It's all fine and good to think or know that, but do you mind telling me when and how?  I mean, it certainly could make sense if they chose to play it that way, I just didn't recall them alluding to it in any specific manner. Regardless, it really seemed like winter kept on coming until after Dany died, not after the Night King died.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 21, 2019, 02:14:56 AM
(https://external-preview.redd.it/UvNTT3ceRNVi-omJ4YBKVK7J-VraWCZjzY30MkLsaGI.jpg?auto=webp&s=7f84d15a40ebe05e7e4851ee1c747b92f99ca7f5)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 21, 2019, 03:40:42 AM
Watching a youtube panel on the episode last night that made me laugh-
Jon is now ICE. As in, he is working at the border :laugh:

Why didnt Jon just pretend Dany went off on drogon and never came back? Maybe she fell off!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: mindme on May 21, 2019, 08:26:14 AM
(https://external-preview.redd.it/UvNTT3ceRNVi-omJ4YBKVK7J-VraWCZjzY30MkLsaGI.jpg?auto=webp&s=7f84d15a40ebe05e7e4851ee1c747b92f99ca7f5)

That's one of the problems. The writers gave up the idea that the characters and the world constraints drive the plot. The writers flipped to just writing a plot and then having characters behave and do stuff as needed. Like when the big wildling guy was pounding Jon on the back for his bravery climbing onto the back of a dragon. The writers forgot the previous season he did it himself.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 21, 2019, 09:14:41 AM
Yeah, agreed. A good example is from the last episode where Dany addresses her army in a foreign tongue that Jon doesn't speak and the next scene he's talking to Tyrion about what she said.  Also, when Dany talked to Jon earlier in the season about how Sansa's changed because of all the things that were done to her, despite never an opportunity to remotely know any of it. The writers very clearly were just focused on having moments and scenes and kinda forgot about building the story naturally from the world and characters they'd built and grown.

I almost wonder, now that I mention it, if maybe them knowing the ending of the series and where the characters wind up, but not the journeys they will take actually made it harder on them than the writers of other wildly popular shows that wrapping up did. For instance, the Breaking Bad writers were free to realize their previous visions for where Walter White and co would end up were the wrong moves and make drastic changes to better fit their characters.  What it they'd felt obligated to make Jesse kill Hank or Skylar run with Walt and so on? Imagine how much harder it would be for those same writers to force the characters to do what they didn't want them to do.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 21, 2019, 09:24:18 AM
I almost wonder, now that I mention it, if maybe them knowing the ending of the series and where the characters wind up, but not the journeys they will take actually made it harder on them than the writers of other wildly popular shows that wrapping up did.

I think that's exactly the problem: they knew the destination, but they no longer had the source material to guide them in how to get there.  And while they are really good at adapting and making hard choices about which parts of source material to emphasize and which to change, they weren't as successful in connecting the dots in a barebones plot sketch. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 21, 2019, 10:40:50 AM
I just posted this on r/GameofThrones (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bravyz/spoilers_i_think_maybe_in_reacting_so_strongly_to/?), expanding my thoughts on the matter.  I'm interested to see everyone's reactions here:

Quote
I still stand by my feelings of the season as nothing changes the end result, but a thought just came to me that makes me wonder if maybe I have been more harsh on Dan and David than was merited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scenario they found themselves in for the last 3ish seasons is pretty novel (if not unprecedented), where they started an adaptation with plenty of source material, ran out, but still knew the broad strokes and ending points of the rest of the story, but not the details of the journeys that lead to them. Many have commented on this fact for quite some time and I've seen it referenced when attempting to explain the downturn in quality of writing by suggesting that most or none of what we came to love about the show ever was ever from D&D, but came from GRRM. What I've never seen mentioned though, is how truly difficult that position would be for any writer.

Imagine, if you will, that for some reason (doesn't matter what, just go with it) the writers of Breaking Bad felt 100% obligated from early on, to have Jesse kill Hank, or to have Skylar or Walt Jr fully side with Walt and become fully engaged criminals too, or to have Jesse freely join the Nazis, or any number of things they clearly never envisioned for the characters. How would that have changed the quality of the writing in the last few seasons, knowing they essentially had lost the creative freedom that most writers cherish? I mean, when you listen to how they wrote Breaking Bad, you realize that while they did have some consistent plans for the end, even from the beginning, it was ultimately this huge collaboration with a constant back and forth between the writers where they sometimes made huge course corrections upon realizing they'd overlooked a trait, fact, or interesting perspective. For instance, it's well known that in talking with fan, Kevin Cordasco, about what he wanted from the show, Gilligan and the other writers realized that Gretchen and Elliott could play an important role in the finale. Imagine if they felt unable to make that change and had to concoct some other reason to make Walt go back that felt less genuine or earned.

I can easily see why this show would slowly stop sparking creativity and driving innovative writing for those in the writers' room, knowing that in the most important ways, your hands were tied. Moreover, I am starting to see how writing this show could easily transform from a pleasure into a chore that is required of you. I firmly believe that passion for one's craft is essential for creating the best art. For the actors, they are used to performing what is given to them, even if they disagree with it, and have been invested in portraying these characters for years. For the directors it's much the same and they've been given truly mind-boggling budgets to employ the best in their fields to create some truly amazing scenes and moments. Same for the composer, and the digital artists, and the costumers, and those in every other job that has continued to output truly marvelous work from the first episode to the last. The writers and show-runners seem uniquely prone to this malady.

I'm not saying that everyone should suddenly be content with the things we disliked; I'm saying that for my part, I think I'm going to be kinder to the human beings who are responsible because maybe they were up against more than I'd given them credit.

TL;DR Writing is a profession that requires passion and a certain degree of creative freedom to make the best works. When D&D surpassed the books, they lost the ability to just be creative in adapting the books and then had to write a show where they had little ability to be creative in what they did with the characters and where they thought the story should go. Maybe that's like a great painter being told they can only fill in the outlines of other artists and maybe that sucks more than I'd ever considered.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 21, 2019, 10:58:37 AM
characters behave and do stuff as needed. Like when the big wildling guy was pounding Jon on the back for his bravery climbing onto the back of a dragon. The writers forgot the previous season he did it himself.
That’s not how I took that. He was singing Jon’s praises for riding a dragon and at the same time singing his own praise for doing the same thing. That’s a bit of drunken braggadocio.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 21, 2019, 11:14:47 AM
I just posted this on r/GameofThrones (https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bravyz/spoilers_i_think_maybe_in_reacting_so_strongly_to/?), expanding my thoughts on the matter.  I'm interested to see everyone's reactions here:

Quote
I still stand by my feelings of the season as nothing changes the end result, but a thought just came to me that makes me wonder if maybe I have been more harsh on Dan and David than was merited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the scenario they found themselves in for the last 3ish seasons is pretty novel (if not unprecedented), where they started an adaptation with plenty of source material, ran out, but still knew the broad strokes and ending points of the rest of the story, but not the details of the journeys that lead to them. Many have commented on this fact for quite some time and I've seen it referenced when attempting to explain the downturn in quality of writing by suggesting that most or none of what we came to love about the show ever was ever from D&D, but came from GRRM. What I've never seen mentioned though, is how truly difficult that position would be for any writer.

Imagine, if you will, that for some reason (doesn't matter what, just go with it) the writers of Breaking Bad felt 100% obligated from early on, to have Jesse kill Hank, or to have Skylar or Walt Jr fully side with Walt and become fully engaged criminals too, or to have Jesse freely join the Nazis, or any number of things they clearly never envisioned for the characters. How would that have changed the quality of the writing in the last few seasons, knowing they essentially had lost the creative freedom that most writers cherish? I mean, when you listen to how they wrote Breaking Bad, you realize that while they did have some consistent plans for the end, even from the beginning, it was ultimately this huge collaboration with a constant back and forth between the writers where they sometimes made huge course corrections upon realizing they'd overlooked a trait, fact, or interesting perspective. For instance, it's well known that in talking with fan, Kevin Cordasco, about what he wanted from the show, Gilligan and the other writers realized that Gretchen and Elliott could play an important role in the finale. Imagine if they felt unable to make that change and had to concoct some other reason to make Walt go back that felt less genuine or earned.

I can easily see why this show would slowly stop sparking creativity and driving innovative writing for those in the writers' room, knowing that in the most important ways, your hands were tied. Moreover, I am starting to see how writing this show could easily transform from a pleasure into a chore that is required of you. I firmly believe that passion for one's craft is essential for creating the best art. For the actors, they are used to performing what is given to them, even if they disagree with it, and have been invested in portraying these characters for years. For the directors it's much the same and they've been given truly mind-boggling budgets to employ the best in their fields to create some truly amazing scenes and moments. Same for the composer, and the digital artists, and the costumers, and those in every other job that has continued to output truly marvelous work from the first episode to the last. The writers and show-runners seem uniquely prone to this malady.

I'm not saying that everyone should suddenly be content with the things we disliked; I'm saying that for my part, I think I'm going to be kinder to the human beings who are responsible because maybe they were up against more than I'd given them credit.

TL;DR Writing is a profession that requires passion and a certain degree of creative freedom to make the best works. When D&D surpassed the books, they lost the ability to just be creative in adapting the books and then had to write a show where they had little ability to be creative in what they did with the characters and where they thought the story should go. Maybe that's like a great painter being told they can only fill in the outlines of other artists and maybe that sucks more than I'd ever considered.

I have to disagree.

Yes, it is hard to get from the point where GRRM left off and where he intends to go. That is probably why he has been sitting on the last two books for so long.

However, knowing how a story ends does not nullify creative freedom. You can give the outlines of a painting to Rembrandt or to my four year-old nephew and they'll make vastly different creative choices. The issue is that the creative choices D&D made were rubbish, because they are just not good enough writers/showrunners. They made fundamental mistakes: they completely abandoned worldbuilding or the rules of the world they were working in. They forgot about character development. They ignored meaningful storytelling in favour of bombastic setpieces and a surprising amount of filler (how is it a reasonable choice to spend more time with Tyrion rearranging chairs than with the death of Daenerys Targaryen?). They did not get bored, they stopped caring about creating a coherent narrative in order to cash in and get out to do more lucrative projects.

There were signs of their lack of ability in the early season as well, but the source material carried them on its back. Once it was gone, they were exposed to be completely useless. Especially since a lot of the tangles of the plot were cut or mutilated (I am still salty about what these hacks did to Dorne), which should have cut down the complicating factors.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 21, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
Running out of book increases creative freedom. 
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 1Pirate on May 21, 2019, 01:36:16 PM
I think that's half-true in this case. When you're locked into an ending, but only have 10 or 12 episodes to get there from halfway around world(metaphorically speaking for some characters, literally speaking for others), it forces you to resolve arcs that needed more time, so(to borrow a trope from a different D&D) you get pushed into making a Rocks Fall, Everybody Dies scenario(somewhat literally in the case of the Lannister twins).

However, this doesn't apply here because it was the showrunners' decision to limit the time and episode count. They had as much time as they needed(well, 2-3 more seasons than they took anyway), but didn't take it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Eternally Learning on May 21, 2019, 02:00:27 PM
Sorry, I'm not trying to say that no writers could have done it or that there was no room for creative expression.  I'm saying that when compared to the kind of writers rooms I've heard the most positive stories about, I can see how this would be less appealing and less fulfilling to be forced to make decisions that perhaps you don't want to.  My hypothesis is less that they are A grade writers faced with an impossible task, and more that I'm starting to understand a little more why they seemed to not put their hearts into it like they seemed to in earlier seasons and perhaps why they seemed to just want it to be over rather than taking the opportunities available to do a better job.  It doesn't excuse the laziness and it doesn't change my perceptions of the quality of the writing; rather, it makes me a little less angry at them for how it turned out.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 21, 2019, 02:08:01 PM
Also consider how much writing and script changes take place while shooting for thousands of reasons.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 21, 2019, 02:24:20 PM
Also consider how Benioff is responsible for X-Men Origins: Wolverine. He is not an A-grade writer.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 21, 2019, 02:38:25 PM
My thoughts on what I've read here and elsewhere: I actually really enjoyed this season, although I do wish they'd done the full 10 episodes, or even two seasons, and spent a lot more time on the Three Eyed Raven and the Night King in particular (and maybe had made the plot armor in the 3rd episode a little thinner - though it was still spectacular to say the least). I admit I have a soft spot for spectacle, but even taking that into account, I still think the ratings on, say, IMDB, especially for the last 3 episodes are absurdly low (the last one is rated 4.4/10 at the time of writing, which is a rating I normally associate with poorly made B horror movies). I loved the conversation between Jon and Tyrion in the last episode.

I also don't think Daenerys' mean streak came out of nowhere, as I've seen a lot of people complaining about, although they should've probably built it up over one or two more episodes. I mean, she's literally "the mother of dragons". How much more ominous a title can you have? She's been built up as having a very dark side to her from the moment she gleefully watched her brother's head being melted off. It was just easier to accept it because the people she had killed had it coming, and her advisors managed to hold her back every time she was about to jump off the deep end. I like these two (lengthy) posts on Quora on the subject:

(click to show/hide)

Also I'll buy the scorpions not being too effective the second time around, which is another thing I've read people complaining about. People learn from their mistakes. The first time, she's cocky, she isn't aware of the danger, and the iron fleet gets off a few lucky shots when they surprise her forces and she's flying pretty much straight and unaware of them, and at a medium altitude on a heavily overcast day. It's over before they have time to react. Then she comes straight at them in a fit of rage so that Euron manning his scorpion only has to make a minor adjustment, and she makes the decision to retreat for fear of losing Drogon. The second time, she's more prepared, and surprises them and comes straight at them from behind and above, from out of thin cloud cover with the (still bright) sun in her back, and changes her altitude and angle continually to avoid the scorpions.

I don't think Bran is such a bad choice either, although I admit I did raise my eyebrow there for a second. Jon is clearly no longer a viable candidate now that he's killed Daenerys. And honestly, who'd want another Targaryen on the throne after what they'd just witnessed? The Unsullied and Dothraki certainly wouldn't have accepted that, so it would likely have plunged them into another war. Sansa is tied up in the North and seems keen on staying out of the Seven Kingdoms, so she can't be it. And who were the other clowns in that tent again (I like how they emphasized this with the uncle who's name no one remembers putting himself forward)? Bran has the collective knowledge and wisdom of dozens of generations and (as far as we know) is not power hungry or evil or self-serving. His "little accident" is what started this whole mess and yet he's one of very few characters that hasn't been out for revenge the whole time. And actually, thinking about it now, it makes a lot more sense now that the Night King would've come for him specifically, too, if he'd been destined for that sort of thing from the start - which is heavily implied in his comment "why do you think I came all this way?". Although if that's what they were trying to say they could've been a bit more explicit.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 21, 2019, 03:20:46 PM
Yeah, agreed. A good example is from the last episode where Dany addresses her army in a foreign tongue that Jon doesn't speak and the next scene he's talking to Tyrion about what she said. 

Not a good example IMO... I'm re-watching that scene right now. Here's the dialogue:

Quote
Jon: I can't justify what happened. I won't try. But the war is over now.

Tyrion: Is it? When you heard her talking to her soldiers, did she sound like someone who's done fighting? She liberated the people of Slaver's Bay. She liberated the people of King's Landing. And she'll go on liberating until the people of the world are free... and she rules them all.

That's the only time they mention her speech in that scene. If you watch the scene where she's giving the speech, it's very obvious even when you're not reading the subs that she's not talking about peace and love, and you can see Jon reacting specifically when she uses the words Winterfell and Dorne in that context.

It's also not unreasonable to assume that Jon has picked up a small bit of the language in the months he's spent fighting side by side with these forces.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 21, 2019, 06:08:54 PM
I agree. It was totally obvious Dany was going to do warcrimes on an unimaginable scale for the setting.

Lucky we got rid of that psycho Ned Stark who taught his children that its their duty to decapitate fleeing terrified conscripts.
Bit late though, his daughter baked a family into a pie and served them to the patriarch but Im sure she will be fine on her adventures.
Literally nothing she did up until the bells was unreasonable for a god person within the world we were given.

We were shown that Dany had a temper and was ruthless in pursuit of justice.
We saw a child rejoice in the death of her pimp and abuser.

It was believable that she would balk at giving up power and that she may be too reckless and deaf to the suffering of innocents in the pursuit of her goals.
We were at least a season away from her singlehandedly committing mass murder of innocent peasants. It would have been an incredible turn had it been done right.

But the writers were in too much of a rush to fail upward to Star Wars.
Its not like I can really talk though, Im the guy who explains every issue in the Nolan trilogy with "Because he is Batman".
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 21, 2019, 06:47:19 PM
I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 21, 2019, 07:18:46 PM
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 21, 2019, 07:24:04 PM
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 21, 2019, 07:59:10 PM
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I haven't read the books either, but I was perfectly fine with the ending. Infact, it was a feeling of dread that came true, something this show has been more than capable of creating (while not many other shows come close)*.

Even if you didn't see that in her, Varys and Tyrion could and they made it clear what they thought she was capable of, and then to prove the point, she incinerated Varys.

*It's similar to the feeling of dread I've had ever since election night, 2016.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 21, 2019, 09:06:35 PM
(https://i.redd.it/248f9q4eslz21.jpg)

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 21, 2019, 09:10:44 PM
I can’t unsee that.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on May 21, 2019, 09:26:28 PM
Great post on Reddit: (Spoilers Main) 99% of the show's problems are due to the omission of Young Griff/(f)Aegon (https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bozxfa/spoilers_main_99_of_the_shows_problems_are_due_to/)

(Spoilered for references to books)

(click to show/hide)

I'm not a book-reader but this looks compelling.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 21, 2019, 10:49:38 PM
Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I apologize; the people whose lengthy posts you quoted (and which I mistook for your own) are reading book lore into the show.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 22, 2019, 04:14:19 AM
I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
I know You werent saying that. All Im saying is that none of her behaviour was especially indicative of anything special at all unless you ignore the context of how people behave in that world and what they consider just.
With that in mind, the massacre came from nowhere. They had started to show us her wild eyed fury at maybe not being the one to sit on the throne or not being able to trust Jon. That was the start of something interesting. I could buy war crimes maybe. But not those specific war crimes.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 22, 2019, 06:10:27 PM
Great post on Reddit: (Spoilers Main) 99% of the show's problems are due to the omission of Young Griff/(f)Aegon (https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bozxfa/spoilers_main_99_of_the_shows_problems_are_due_to/)

(Spoilered for references to books)

(click to show/hide)

I'm not a book-reader but this looks compelling.

After I read the books, I'll probably be ennerdraged by this. Which is basically the reason I postponed reading them. }|<o)

Werecow, I think that you are reading book lore into the show. What we were shown on screen was a character who, while ambitious and damaged and a bit too obsessed with fire, was always fundamentally sympathetic toward and a champion of the downtrodden.  The character we were shown would have burned down the Red Keep, might have murdered Jon and anyone who knew his secret, might even systematically eliminate the lords of Westeros if they opposed her; but they never showed us a woman who would indiscriminately burn hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens...men, women, and children. If that’s the woman they intended to portray, they failed at it.

I wonder to what extent the divide between those who are satisfied with Danaerys’ development and those who are not reflects the divide between those who have read the books and those who have not.

I'm not sure how I'd be doing that since I've never read the books and don't know much about how they differ from the series.

I apologize; the people whose lengthy posts you quoted (and which I mistook for your own) are reading book lore into the show.

Maybe, and obviously I'm projecting my own view of the character onto the show, but even before I read those posts or saw that episode, I always had a feeling that Daenerys was just a little too gleeful as she watched her adversaries burn to be the winner of this show, and she always struck me as more of a conqueror and a zealot than a ruler. Revenge is always kind of a dark, but GoT has some especially dark revenge scenes, and Dany had maybe the most of those of any character on the show - and whereas Sansa has starved hounds and Arya has needle and other people's faces, she has an airborne industrial sized flamethrower when she goes apeshit. Sure, I felt no sympathy for her early adversaries and I was cheering her on, but then I have a bit of a dark streak at times too, so she was actually kind of relatable in that way (I've seen people here apologetically saying they would never wish harm on a fellow human being in the context of, oh, say, real-life politics - I'll happily wish lethal harm on some of them, and I hope it'll come soon, and that it'll hurt, hopefully a lot - but then, I'm not aiming to be the ruler of a continent). From a narrative point-of-view, it's hard to explain exactly, but I always had this sense that things just seemed to go her way a little too easily a lot of the time (comparatively speaking, in the context of this particular show that makes a point of fucking with our expectations). Maybe Certainly I've just seen way too many movies, but she always struck me as a good "plot-twist villain". She solved all her big problems with almost literal hellfire, she controls literal monsters, she's often worried about her own sanity... but her targets were just not people we had any emotional attachment to until she came to Westeros. Most of the time her advisors pulled her back from the brink of losing it, continually reassuring her that she was nothing like her father. A little too on the nose, right there. And then, she wanted to burn the Red Keep before on the show, too. Sure, it could've easily gone another way, but I don't think it's that unbelievable that she would go that route once those soothing voices and cheering crowds were gone and she felt completely abandoned and betrayed.

I didn't say she's been the most evil character on the show, I'm saying she's always been a lot more gray than a lot of people acknowledge. A lot of the "good" guys in the series have done some very evil shit and would not make good rulers. She's one of them.

But I do agree that the show would've benefited from having more episodes to get her to that point.
I know You werent saying that. All Im saying is that none of her behaviour was especially indicative of anything special at all unless you ignore the context of how people behave in that world and what they consider just.
With that in mind, the massacre came from nowhere. They had started to show us her wild eyed fury at maybe not being the one to sit on the throne or not being able to trust Jon. That was the start of something interesting. I could buy war crimes maybe. But not those specific war crimes.

I still disagree that it came out of nowhere (e.g.: if she's so hell-bent on liberating people, why is she so adamant that everyone must bend the knee to her), but I will agree that they could have done a better job at making her descent into madness more believable. In particular, they could have paid more attention to her perspective and made the point of "nobody here likes me, so I have only one option left" earlier.

I was actually kind of dreading this season because it seemed to me that there was no way to tie all of this together in six episodes. I would certainly have liked a slower development, but it was not so poorly done that it actually turned me off at any point, and I was actually kind of impressed at how much story telling they managed to pack into that short run.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 23, 2019, 07:27:15 AM
werecow: I’m not sure that I disagree with anything that you’ve said. There was nothing implausible in Dany turning to madness; indeed, it was long foreshadowed and I expected it. And you seem to agree with me that they did not adequately develop her descent into madness on the show due to time constraints.  I think where we differ is that you are willing to overlook that lack of development and fill in the blanks, so-to-speak, for the writers, as long as the turn was foreshadowed. I, on the other hand, consider the failure to make her actual descent into madness believable a nearly fatal flaw.  I think that it was the single most important thing they had to do this season, and they just didn’t do it.  Again, it is not the fact that she turned that is the problem; I expected that. It’s that they didn’t adequately sell the turn.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: werecow on May 23, 2019, 07:41:25 AM
I guess I just felt it wasn't that poorly done.

Also maybe a factor in this is that I often watch movies more for their atmosphere and the emotions they invoke in me than the actual story. And often I just kind of want to turn my brain off when I'm trying to relax. And I've watched so many bad movies that maybe my standards are just not that high. Not that I don't appreciate good writing, intricate plots, and character development or that I don't notice when it's done really poorly, but in this case it just didn't strike me as all that bad. Could've been better, sure. But it didn't bother me.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 23, 2019, 07:56:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ&t=0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ&t=0s)
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 23, 2019, 01:51:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ&t=0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ&t=0s)

That's pretty funny, but also pretty cynical.  The only way to wrap up the show satisfactorily for the book readers (I am one) would be to wait for GRRM to conclude the story.  I think they were stuck with a massive mop head of plot threads and they did (they thought) what was best.  I don't think the ending was perfect, but it was pretty good compared to others (Lost, I am looking at you).
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 23, 2019, 01:58:02 PM
I mean, at least Arya's not pretending to be dead while working as a lumberjack.


I don't hate on this season near as much as everyone else seems to.  However it did feel like they should have spread it out over more time.  HBO, from what I've heard, wanted it spread out more.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Swagomatic on May 23, 2019, 02:04:34 PM
I mean, at least Arya's not pretending to be dead while working as a lumberjack.


I don't hate on this season near as much as everyone else seems to.  However it did feel like they should have spread it out over more time.  HBO, from what I've heard, wanted it spread out more.

Yeah, also, it's got to be tough for free lancers - you have this great gig, which brings you a bunch of lucrative opportunities, but you are unable to properly engage with them because there is an open-ended, herky-jerky production schedule.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 23, 2019, 03:34:36 PM
I mean, at least Arya's not pretending to be dead while working as a lumberjack.


I don't hate on this season near as much as everyone else seems to.  However it did feel like they should have spread it out over more time.  HBO, from what I've heard, wanted it spread out more.

Maybe if they merged the reunion episode and the eve of the battle episode into a the first 15 minutes of the first episode of the season, they'd have more time to show her go nuts.

But I actually liked those episodes too. Overall I thought the final season was as good as I expected it to be (not nearly as good as some of the earlier seasons, but still far far better than most of what's on TV).

Dany going nuts on Kings Landing didn't surprise me at all, it seemed just fine and within her character. Once she told Jon she was going to rule by fear rather than love, I started feeling that sense of dread.

Maybe those hints and others through the series were a little too subtle.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 23, 2019, 06:50:29 PM
I don’t think many people were surprised by Danaerys’ turn; you could see it coming a mile away. But the fact that the plot point was telegraphed does not mean that the character change necessary for it was properly developed.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Rai on May 27, 2019, 03:41:57 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 27, 2019, 07:30:09 AM
I thought this article was very interesting and made me think of storytelling and the stories I enjoy in very different ways:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

When the show started, it (like The Wire) focused on systems and what they do to the people caught up in them. The story was about the cause and effect of the system.
After a while though, it became more of a standard character driven story. Thats fine, most storytelling is that, but I dont think its what captured peoples imagination to begin with.

And yeah, I agree with TheLat- Forshadowing is not the same as developing.

I counted as I drove yesterday, I think for the finale of this season alone, I have watched 3 hours worth of good quality and enjoyable youtube analysis, listened to about 4 hours worth of podcasts and had some really interesting conversations. The same is true for most of the episodes, minus a couple of hours.

Thats a pretty good return on investment entertainment wise!
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 27, 2019, 09:37:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0mncEl4nVU

I disagree with the premise of that video.  There's nothing wrong with the plot as it stands (aside, in my opinion, from Jamie Lannister's end); it just needed more time to develop the characters and their character changes.

And yeah, I agree with TheLat- Forshadowing is not the same as developing.

I'm not sure I agree with the way the phrase 'foreshadowing is not character development' is being thrown around on the Internet. It's true in that foreshadowing is not sufficient for character development, but it is an integral part of the process of developing a character.

Quote
I counted as I drove yesterday, I think for the finale of this season alone, I have watched 3 hours worth of good quality and enjoyable youtube analysis, listened to about 4 hours worth of podcasts and had some really interesting conversations. The same is true for most of the episodes, minus a couple of hours.

This is why I object so strongly to people characterizing dissatisfaction with this episode as 'haters gonna hate'; people are genuinely invested in and love this show, and they are making serious efforts to understand and give meaningful critiques of it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 27, 2019, 12:05:40 PM
I fully agree that foreshadowing is necessary, just that to make a turn believable, I think it has to either be prepped with the audience through incremental turns in that direction or a sense off tension with piling pressures and a snap (Danys snap came after she won) or a sharp turn where extra info is then revealed to the audience (as with Fight Club) that retroactively makes things understandable and more enjoyable.

The more I think about Jaime though, the more it sadly fits. He went to fight the dead because that was the honourable knightly thing to do. Nothing Cercei had done turned him against her. Once it was all done, it makes sense that he would go back.
Jaimes honour was redeemed in the show, in terms of being known as the kingslayer and untrustworthy, but he saved some Starks and was a bit heroic but essentially didnt ever develop the same way he has in the books by moving away from Cercei.
I think thats an overall failure of the show but not necessarily out of nowhere.
Except for that fanservice thing between him and Brienne.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 12:43:30 PM
Most of Dany’s closest allies, friends and trusted advisors had either betrayed her or were dead. She had no one she could trust.

Her true love hadn’t  just ended their relationship and depleted her armies, but became the biggest threat to her claim to the throne.

Given her already known habit of burning people to death, certainly you didn’t expect business as usual.

As I said before I had a feeling of dread goin into that episode and as it unfolded the it was is if the foreboding came true.

 


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 27, 2019, 01:14:29 PM
Ooooh! Well then it makes total sense that she would kill more people than her father did AFTER she had won.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 01:34:08 PM
You expect the mad queen to make sense?

Wouldn’t the mad king have killed more people if he hadn’t been stopped?

And she hadn’t yet won, but she was winning.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 01:34:51 PM
Most of Dany’s closest allies, friends and trusted advisors had either betrayed her or were dead. She had no one she could trust.

Her true love hadn’t  just ended their relationship and depleted her armies, but became the biggest threat to her claim to the throne.

Given her already known habit of burning people to death, certainly you didn’t expect business as usual.

As I said before I had a feeling of dread going into that episode and as it unfolded it was is if the foreboding came true.

 


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 01:37:23 PM
Given her multiple betrayals and increased isolation, and the biggest threat to her claim to the throne coming from her true love, who is now distant from her and closer to her rivals, how did you expect her to act?


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Captain Video on May 27, 2019, 02:08:14 PM
I watched the wrap up documentary last night and really enjoyed it.

They highlighted many of the lesser known jobs which is always great, even the extras. I think its cool that no mater where in the world they are shooting things work mostly the same. There were a few differences. For instance I see over there they have to pay for their own craft services (she does not take credit LOL) and the Locations Manager was directing truck parking which is a transportation coordinator job here. (Both are Teamsters)

The SFX guy laying down the snow and stressing how he could only lay it down in a few locations at a time was beautiful. I have heard the exact same complaints before. BTW Im convinced the temperature drops 5 degrees when they put that stuff down even though its made of cellulose. It fools your brain.

The locations manager explaining the logistics of handling that many extras was also cool.

Stress was shown everywhere but like all film workers they fight through it.

its worth a watch.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 27, 2019, 02:19:07 PM
I'm glad it worked for you, but your own experience cannot be universalized.  Enough people clearly did not believe Danaerys' actions that it is clear the show runners were not successful in developing that her character was capable of murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It's not that we are not seeing the things that you are; we just don't think that they are adequate to tell the story convincingly.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 02:19:15 PM
We started watching it but planned to switch to something else if it was dull or sappy.

We watched the whole thing. I particularly liked the stuntman who played the night king and the whole sequence showing the choreography involved in Arya’s attack.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 02:20:07 PM
We started watching the behind the scenes documentary  but planned to switch to something else if it was dull or sappy.

We watched the whole thing. I particularly liked the stuntman who played the night king and the whole sequence showing the choreography involved in Arya’s attack.


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 02:20:43 PM
I'm glad it worked for you, but your own experience cannot be universalized.  Enough people clearly did not believe Danaerys' actions that it is clear the show runners were not successful in developing that her character was capable of murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It's not that we are not seeing the things that you are; we just don't think that they are adequate to tell the story convincingly.
So, again, how did you expect her to react?


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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 27, 2019, 03:07:42 PM
I'm glad it worked for you, but your own experience cannot be universalized.  Enough people clearly did not believe Danaerys' actions that it is clear the show runners were not successful in developing that her character was capable of murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It's not that we are not seeing the things that you are; we just don't think that they are adequate to tell the story convincingly.
So, again, how did you expect her to react?

As I said earlier in the thread, it would be in keeping with her character to burn the Red Keep, to kill Jon, to burn the Lannister army in battle, or to execute anyone who, at the end of the battle, refused to bend the knee.  It is not in keeping with her character as showed on screen to burn hundreds of thousands of innocent people--men, women, and children--whose only crime was to take refuge from coming war inside the city and who had already surrendered.  To get her to the point where that was a convincing plot turn would require a hell of a lot more setup than we saw in this season.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 27, 2019, 03:45:07 PM
Nothing Cercei had done turned him against her.
Well, except for sending Bronn to kill him but whatever turns people on.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 27, 2019, 03:50:12 PM
I'm glad it worked for you, but your own experience cannot be universalized.  Enough people clearly did not believe Danaerys' actions that it is clear the show runners were not successful in developing that her character was capable of murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. It's not that we are not seeing the things that you are; we just don't think that they are adequate to tell the story convincingly.
So, again, how did you expect her to react?


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To burn down the red keep, ignore Thousands of casualties while she is doing that. This appeared to be what she was doing after the bells as she flew straight for the red keep until she forgot what she was doing and started burning people and delaying the burning of the keep.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 27, 2019, 05:14:52 PM
You see that’s exactly how I would have expected her to act had she never been betrayed and had not lost those close to her.

But she changed. I didn’t need her to say “ I’m here to chew gum or raze a city and I’m all out of gum” to realize that her grief heartbreak and isolation had an effect.




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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on May 28, 2019, 09:32:16 AM
Really? Cause that wasn't the direction of the narrative. Had she never been betrayed, she would likely have been as lenient as she had been on her previous encounters with her enemies. She was willing to accept her enemies to bend the knee. After breaking, she is taking no quarters. This makes sense.

When she wasn't being betrayed and isolated, she was hearing out all of the advisers plan, and holding back. So having not being betrayed she would have clearly heard the advise of his advisers which was to back down after the bells. Considering that this is all assuming no betrayal and having both her dragon's and her sundae, cause that is what she has been doing all along. The betrayal and the lost close ones, broke her and She stops hearing advise and dose her thing.

The thing is Carb. If you have Your worst enemy on your left and a random innocent civilian on the right. Why would someone like Danery's even in a madden frenzy would go after the innocent first?
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: The Latinist on May 28, 2019, 09:39:43 AM
But she changed.

But, as I said, they did not sell that change.  You may have bought it, but they didn't sell it.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Calinthalus on May 28, 2019, 11:40:42 AM
The thing is, I don't think she changed.  I think she made up her mind that she had to make an example of Kings Landing way back when Jon wouldn't give her the Dick of The North and she decided she could never be accepted in Westeros by any means other than fear.  She knew that if she just let Cercei bend the knee after her bullshit she would never hold the seven kingdoms together and would face challenges from everywhere from Dorne to Winterfell.  However, by eradicating a city worth of civilians as punishment people would not dare stand against her.  It wasn't crazy...it was ruthless, as she has always been.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: CarbShark on May 28, 2019, 11:56:56 AM
The thing is, I don't think she changed.  I think she made up her mind that she had to make an example of Kings Landing way back when Jon wouldn't give her the Dick of The North and she decided she could never be accepted in Westeros by any means other than fear.  She knew that if she just let Cercei bend the knee after her bullshit she would never hold the seven kingdoms together and would face challenges from everywhere from Dorne to Winterfell.  However, by eradicating a city worth of civilians as punishment people would not dare stand against her.  It wasn't crazy...it was ruthless, as she has always been.

I agree with most of that.

The change came when she realized that Jon had a better claim to the throne, and that the people of Westeros and their leaders loved him more than her. At that point she had no advisors she could trust and was all alone.

She had said that she’d rather rule by love but would rule by fear if need be.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say it wasn’t crazy. But it was ruthless and calculated and within her character.




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Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on May 30, 2019, 06:42:16 AM
The thing is, I don't think she changed.  I think she made up her mind that she had to make an example of Kings Landing way back when Jon wouldn't give her the Dick of The North and she decided she could never be accepted in Westeros by any means other than fear.  She knew that if she just let Cercei bend the knee after her bullshit she would never hold the seven kingdoms together and would face challenges from everywhere from Dorne to Winterfell.  However, by eradicating a city worth of civilians as punishment people would not dare stand against her.  It wasn't crazy...it was ruthless, as she has always been.
But it was really reallly stupid.
Which she had never been.

And all of the excuses for her behaviour ignore the D&D explanation from their interview which states that when she heard the bells it became 'personal'.
So she hadnt always intended to do it. It was an emotional decision. But it was already personal after Missandei was beheaded in front of her and instead of going for the perpetrators she went after civilians.

I think thats why they didnt show interviews after the final episode because they realised that the writers explanations were outing it as poorly written.

Look at John Wick. His wife died, his dog murdered, he gets back into the life he escaped to punish those responsible for his misery.
He didnt go and shoot up a mall. Which would be REALLY stupid character development and gratuitous spectacle. But the greatest tv show of all time cant even rise to the basic level of competancy of a dumb action flick in this regard.
It leaves it in the dust in most other regards, but this is a genuine flaw and was a mistake on the part of the writers. That in itself is not the end of the world or a reason not to love it any way.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 2397 on June 05, 2019, 03:43:05 AM
First two episodes, sort of meh.

Third episode, literally too dark. I try not to be that bothered about special effects, But if you're ditching diagloue in favor of action, at least make sure that we can see the action. I didn't really care about the peril while I was being annoyed by the visuals, and not having much in terms of dialogue to add to the story. The ending was great, though. Funny, actually. I laughed at how suddenly it ended. If stabbing the Night King with a certain type of material was all it took, why not make arrow tips out of it? Maybe practice dropping big chunks of it from a dragon, or teaching the dragons to do it.

Fourth episode, it was alright for the most part. Why do the dragons fly so low? Why wouldn't they be using their height advantage to scout out the path ahead from way up, on behalf of everyone? I guess they just didn't think they could be killed. Again, it would be nice to be able to drop objects from the dragons. How high up can they go? Assuming gravity works the same way in this universe, that could be quite powerful.

Fifth episode, fuckity hell. Instant tyrant on a saurus. Why not at least go directly for Cersei after you took out all the AA systems? Why build up to Cersei through the masses of civilians? She must've fantasized about slaughtering everyone in the city before, hoping that they wouldn't surrender. And yeah, what's the deal with Jamie?

Final episode. I was expecting Jon to stab her to death at first opportunity. Which was when Grey Worm was occupied with walking Tyrion out of there. With how much convincing it took, it's good that he didn't become the king.

I have a few minor questions but its stuff I can live with.

for instance:

What is the point of a Night Watch now?  No Night King and the wildlings are friends now.

I thought it was just an excuse to get Jon out of there alive. Which is basically what Tyrion said, there needs to be somewhere for unwanted people to go.

And I thought Bran as king was fair enough. He's both lacking in desire for power, and has a handy superpower.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: mindme on June 05, 2019, 08:33:41 AM
Fourth episode, it was alright for the most part. Why do the dragons fly so low?

This season there are so many examples of the writers deciding on the story line and then having characters just do stupid, uncharacteristic things to lock step march right through the plot. That's but one example.

Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Guillermo on June 05, 2019, 08:41:53 AM
Fourth episode, it was alright for the most part. Why do the dragons fly so low? Why wouldn't they be using their height advantage to scout out the path ahead from way up, on behalf of everyone? I guess they just didn't think they could be killed. Again, it would be nice to be able to drop objects from the dragons. How high up can they go? Assuming gravity works the same way in this universe, that could be quite powerful.
The worst part is that in Season 7 they use a scorpion on Drogon and it almost kills him. So She knows that they have the ability to hurt their dragons. I guess she forgot about that too.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Paul Blevins Jr. on June 05, 2019, 02:42:19 PM
I would imagine after seeing how devastating the fire-breath of a dragon can be, one would think dropping big rocks kind of a waste of time. But what are the limits of a dragon's fire? The show, particularly during the destruction of King's Landing, seems to indicate there are done. It never gets exhausted? It's not dependent on how much a dragon has eaten or the quality of it's food? Earlier in the season, they mentioned the dragon's were not eating as much as they should, not liking the environment of the North. I thought this was foreshadowing for something, perhaps a dragon being exhausted at a crucial moment...but nope. Totally meaningless and forgotten.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: 2397 on June 05, 2019, 05:23:24 PM
I would imagine after seeing how devastating the fire-breath of a dragon can be, one would think dropping big rocks kind of a waste of time. But what are the limits of a dragon's fire? The show, particularly during the destruction of King's Landing, seems to indicate there are done. It never gets exhausted? It's not dependent on how much a dragon has eaten or the quality of it's food? Earlier in the season, they mentioned the dragon's were not eating as much as they should, not liking the environment of the North. I thought this was foreshadowing for something, perhaps a dragon being exhausted at a crucial moment...but nope. Totally meaningless and forgotten.

Yeah, would've thought they would convert something into fire, however magical the conversion is. But on screen the main issue is range. A rock could be dropped from any height they can fly to, getting more powerful the further up it's dropped from.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Harry Black on June 05, 2019, 05:46:03 PM
Dragon fire seems to be able to make buildings explode anyway, even absent of wildfire, so there really seems to be no need of other applications.
Title: Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 Discussion [SPOILERS FOR LATEST EPISODES]
Post by: Soldier of FORTRAN on June 06, 2019, 12:26:26 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Sh39LYll.jpg)