Author Topic: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)  (Read 7280 times)

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Offline Apeiron

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Subject introduction
Pirsig uses the autobiographical story of a motorcycle and hiking trip in the USA as a background to discuss various philosophical topics, mainly concerned with epistemology and metaphysics. He argues that western (rational/scientific/logical) thinking is not adequate to cope with reality because of several problems he feels it has. As an alternative to pure rational thought, Pirsig offers a synthesis between "western" and "eastern" thought that includes both a classical (subject-object understanding of reality) and a romantic (Zen-like understanding) perspective.

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Robert M. Pirsig
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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An in my opinion very good criticism of Pirsig's text

Offline Hanes

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 12:39:28 PM »
This is a passage from Ch.3.  Pirsig's charecter, his son, and two friends are sitting around in a motel room drinking (not the son).


Quote
After a while he says, "Do you believe in ghosts?"
"No," I say
"Why not?"
"Because they are un-sci-en-ti-fic."
The way I say this makes John smile. "They contain no matter," I continue, "and have no energy and therefore, according to the laws of science, do not exist except in people's minds."
The whiskey, the fatigue and the wind in the trees start mixing in my mind. "Of course," I add, "the laws of science contain no matter and have no energy either and therefore do not exist except in people's minds. It's best to be completely scientific about the whole thing and refuse to believe in either ghosts or the laws of science. That way you're safe. That doesn't leave you very much to believe in, but that's scientific too."
"I don't know what you're talking about," Chris says.
"I'm being kind of facetious."
Chris gets frustrated when I talk like this, but I don't think it hurts him.
"One of the kids at YMCA camp says he believes in ghosts."
"He was just spoofing you."
"No, he wasn't. He said that when people haven't been buried right, their ghosts come back to haunt people. He really believes in that."
"He was just spoofing you," I repeat.
"What's his name?" Sylvia says.
"Tom White Bear."
John and I exchange looks, suddenly recognizing the same thing.
"Ohhh, Indian!" he says.
I laugh. "I guess I'm going to have to take that back a little," I say. "I was thinking of European ghosts."
"What's the difference?"
John roars with laughter. "He's got you," he says.
I think a little and say, "Well, Indians sometimes have a different way of looking at things, which I'm not saying is completely wrong. Science isn't part of the Indian tradition."
"Tom White Bear said his mother and dad told him not to believe all that stuff. But he said his grandmother whispered it was true anyway, so he believes it."
He looks at me pleadingly. He really does want to know things sometimes. Being facetious is not being a very good father. "Sure," I say, reversing myself, "I believe in ghosts too."
Now John and Sylvia look at me peculiarly. I see I'm not going to get out of this one easily and brace myself for a long explanation.
"It's completely natural," I say, "to think of Europeans who believed in ghosts or Indians who believed in ghosts as ignorant. The scientific point of view has wiped out every other view to a point where they all seem primitive, so that if a person today talks about ghosts or spirits he is considered ignorant or maybe nutty. It's just all but completely impossible to imagine a world where ghosts can actually exist."
John nods affirmatively and I continue.
"My own opinion is that the intellect of modern man isn't that superior. IQs aren't that much different. Those Indians and medieval men were just as intelligent as we are, but the context in which they thought was completely different. Within that context of thought, ghosts and spirits are quite as real as atoms, particles, photons and quants are to a modern man. In that sense I believe in ghosts. Modern man has his ghosts and spirits too, you know."
"What?"
"Oh, the laws of physics and of logic -- the number system -- the principle of algebraic substitution. These are ghosts. We just believe in them so thoroughly they seem real.
"They seem real to me," John says.
"I don't get it," says Chris.
So I go on. "For example, it seems completely natural to presume that gravitation and the law of gravitation existed before Isaac Newton. It would sound nutty to think that until the seventeenth century there was no gravity."
"Of course."
"So when did this law start? Has it always existed?"
John is frowning, wondering what I am getting at.
"What I'm driving at," I say, "is the notion that before the beginning of the earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before the primal generation of anything, the law of gravity existed."
"Sure."
"Sitting there, having no mass of its own, no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space either, not anywhere...this law of gravity still existed?"
Now John seems not so sure.
"If that law of gravity existed," I say, "I honestly don't know what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me that law of gravity has passed every test of nonexistence there is. You cannot think of a single attribute of nonexistence that that law of gravity didn't have. Or a single scientific attribute of existence it did have. And yet it is still `common sense' to believe that it existed."
John says, "I guess I'd have to think about it."
"Well, I predict that if you think about it long enough you will find yourself going round and round and round and round until you finally reach only one possible, rational, intelligent conclusion. The law of gravity and gravity itself did not exist before Isaac Newton. No other conclusion makes sense.
"And what that means," I say before he can interrupt, "and what that means is that that law of gravity exists nowhere except in people's heads! It's a ghost! We are all of us very arrogant and conceited about running down other people's ghosts but just as ignorant and barbaric and superstitious about our own."
"Why does everybody believe in the law of gravity then?"
"Mass hypnosis. In a very orthodox form known as `education."'
"You mean the teacher is hypnotizing the kids into believing the law of gravity?"
"Sure."
"That's absurd."
"You've heard of the importance of eye contact in the classroom? Every educationist emphasizes it. No educationist explains it."
John shakes his head and pours me another drink. He puts his hand over his mouth and in a mock aside says to Sylvia, "You know, most of the time he seems like such a normal guy."
I counter, "That's the first normal thing I've said in weeks. The rest of the time I'm feigning twentieth-
century lunacy just like you are. So as not to draw attention to myself.
"But I'll repeat it for you," I say. "We believe the disembodied words of Sir Isaac Newton were sitting in the middle of nowhere billions of years before he was born and that magically he discovered these words. They were always there, even when they applied to nothing. Gradually the world came into being and then they applied to it. In fact, those words themselves were what formed the world. That, John, is ridiculous.
"The problem, the contradiction the scientists are stuck with, is that of mind. Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape its predominance over everything they do. Logic exists in the mind. Numbers exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that ghosts exist in the mind. It's that only that gets me. Science is only in your mind too, it's just that that doesn't make it bad. Or ghosts either."
They are just looking at me so I continue: "Laws of nature are human inventions, like ghosts. Laws of logic, of mathematics are also human inventions, like ghosts. The whole blessed thing is a human invention, including the idea that it isn't a human invention. The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination. It's all a ghost, and in antiquity was so recognized as a ghost, the whole blessed world we live in. It's run by ghosts. We see what we see because these ghosts show it to us, ghosts of Moses and Christ and the Buddha, and Plato, and Descartes, and Rousseau and Jefferson and Lincoln, on and on and on. Isaac Newton is a very good ghost. One of the best. Your common sense is nothing more than the voices of thousands and thousands of these ghosts from the past. Ghosts and more ghosts. Ghosts trying to find their place among the living."

Offline Hanes

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 12:46:50 PM »
I really liked Zen and the Art when I first read it.  I read it a few years later and still really enjoyed it.  Both times I got a little lost when he started talking about "quality."

I really like the above passage.  Since reading this, I cringe slightly whenever someone says that math is the universal language.  Math and science are human inventions used to explain the world around us.  I see no reason why aliens would be forced to invent the same system.

Still, reading this post-SGU, I wish he would have included, "but in the end math and science yield testable predictions, while the 'spirit of a dead person' hypothesis is completely impotent."

Offline Apeiron

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 02:40:49 PM »
There is every reason for math and science to be universal. Aliens, if they're highly advanced, will have discovered the same things as we have about reality - through science and mathematics.

Pirsig is making the HUGE mistake here to miss out on the fact that the "law of gravity" is merely our description of an *actual* thing in reality: gravity.

This passage is exactly why Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is such a bad book. Pirsig just hasn't thought about it enough, though he sure is good at making it seem he did.

Offline wastrel

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 05:01:07 PM »
There is every reason for math and science to be universal. Aliens, if they're highly advanced, will have discovered the same things as we have about reality - through science and mathematics.

I heard somewhere that we have a base ten math system due to having ten digits on our hands.  That an alien culture would be likely to have a different base system, like eight or twelve.

Not that it would matter, math is still math, I just always thought that was a vaguely interesting concept.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:28:38 PM by wastrel »

Offline DoctorAtlantis

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 05:46:23 PM »
I have started this book more times than I've tried to quit sundaes.  I just can't finish it, and I can't bring myself to burn an Audible credit on it.

Offline Grimner

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 07:19:37 PM »
Darn, I've just been debating a guy who was going on and on with the whole "laws of nature are just human imaginations". Wondering if this is where he got that particular bug.
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Offline UFO™

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 10:51:47 PM »
As an avid motorcyclist, I was drawn to the book.

The first half of the book... quite entertaining and good "travelling" story with some light philosophy thrown in.

The second half of the book ... a downward spiral of (at least to me) obtuse ramblings that culminate in a lengthy disertation into "what is quality". I could take no more.

Offline MisterMarc

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 10:59:03 PM »
Is this metaphysical BS along the same lines as 'The Way of the Peaceful Warrior'?

Offline dhawk

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 11:34:46 PM »
I had to read this in high school.  This was pre-SGU mind you, so I couldn't put my finger on why Pirsig was wrong, but even then it smelled like bullshit to me.  I never really liked this book, but my teacher was in love with it.
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Offline Apeiron

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2008, 01:37:44 AM »
watrel - That is indeed something interesting to think about, but as you said it makes no difference to math.

---

I didn't really like the first part of the book, probably because I wanted more philosophy and less traveling. In this part he also offers his extremely weak (and easily refuted) criticism of western thought.

Then in the middle part he begins unfolding his metaphysics of Quality that somehow precedes the subject-object distinction (which according to Pirsig is merely a figment of our imagination, a "ghost" inherited from the Greeks). I didn't like that part very much, because there I decided he was completely full of crap. I was already rather suspicious during the first part, disagreeing with him a lot, but the middle part was just more than I could take in crappy thought.

Now I'm towards the end (about 80 pages to go) and though I very very much disagree with his philosophy, I do like the book at this stage a lot. He's describing how he (though he refers to himself there as Phaedrus) made his intellectual journey through Kant, Aristotle, Plato and pre-Socratic philosophy (and more of course, but mainly those). I love to read about how people read stuff that I know about and then what they think of it etc., so I really like this "intellectual journey"-bit. However, it kinda sucks that he sometimes completely fails to get Plato's/Aristotle's point and just takes a wrong turn in order to suit his own purposes.

Offline MisterMarc

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2008, 02:58:45 AM »
I didn't like that part very much, because there I decided he was completely full of crap.

This is a beautiful statement!  :)

Offline Apeiron

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2008, 01:55:58 PM »
I finished the book earlier today and my verdict is unchanged: poor logic and some things are just not thought through enough. His criticism of rational thought is easily refuted, and his alternative is frankly ridiculous and completely baseless (though of course I'm just in the narrow western mindset if I require evidence before accepting his view of reality).

Offline Apeiron

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2008, 07:36:49 AM »
I downloaded the audio version of this book and was surprised to discover it was read by the same guy who read all male parts for the Wheel of Time series. If I ever listen to the audiobook, that'll be pretty weird :P

Offline spiney

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Re: Robert Pirsig - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2008, 01:14:03 PM »
Was a cult book, like Lord of the Rings.

Read it, remember enjoying it at the time, can't now recall anything from it!

 

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