Author Topic: Al Sullivan, a NDE.  (Read 2678 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline porovaara

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« on: October 15, 2010, 10:48:48 PM »


Okay guys I am trouble figuring this one out.

Al Sullivan was having heart surgery when he had a typical out of body near death experience. He observed people operating on him and some other family type stuff. However he notes one odd behaviour of the surgeon, Dr. Takata. During long medical procedures Dr. Takata often rests his hands close to his armpits and uses his elbows to point things out to people he is directing, looking somewhat like someone who is making the flapping chicken arms emote.

Al Sullivan, after the surgery described his experience and that he saw Dr. Takata doing this behaviour, however during surgery Sullivan had his eyes taped shut, was behind a visual obstruction and under anesthesia.

Simply still being conscious doesn't solve how he knew this bit of information as there were multiple visual impairments.

No one admits to explaining this behaviour to Mr. Sullivan before or after the surgery... and why would they?

So how did he know Dr. Takata did this?

The only things I can come up with was that he was semi-conscious and able to perceive the shadow of the doctor through the sheet with his eyes not being taped shut effectively or someone on staff making an off-hand remark of some kind about Dr. Takata doing "his chicken again" or something.

Help me out here people, other explanations other than simply being given information and making false statements?


Offline Jim S

  • I demand that you shoot me now!
  • Too Much Spare Time
  • ********
  • Posts: 7207
  • karma: -9001
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 11:07:04 PM »
Do you have a link to this?   I mean, sure, I know Al, but I doubt everybody else here does.    ;D



No one admits to explaining this behaviour to Mr. Sullivan before or after the surgery... and why would they?


Just because no one admits it doesn't mean it didn't happen.    You most often hear about this sort of thing with regards to criminal cases.   For instance, people will sometimes confess to the crime and reveal details they "couldn't have known", even though they actually are innocent.  The interrogating officers let the information slip without knowing it. 

The information leak could have happened before the surgery as well....it's just that no one remembers or knows they did it.   For instance, perhaps when he went for his pre-op visit, a couple nurses in the office were talking about it or imitating it, and didn't even know Al saw this. Maybe Al doesn't even remember....our memory is certainly fallible.




A bit of dumb, On a flea, On the wing, On the fly, On the frog, On the bump, On the log, In the hole, In the middle of the sea of awesome.

Offline pandamonium

  • Skeptical Beer Inspector
  • Planetary Skeptic
  • *
  • Posts: 24353
  • they/them
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 11:21:25 PM »
Do you have a link to this?   I mean, sure, I know Al, but I doubt everybody else here does.    ;D



No one admits to explaining this behaviour to Mr. Sullivan before or after the surgery... and why would they?


Just because no one admits it doesn't mean it didn't happen.    You most often hear about this sort of thing with regards to criminal cases.   For instance, people will sometimes confess to the crime and reveal details they "couldn't have known", even though they actually are innocent.  The interrogating officers let the information slip without knowing it. 

The information leak could have happened before the surgery as well....it's just that no one remembers or knows they did it.   For instance, perhaps when he went for his pre-op visit, a couple nurses in the office were talking about it or imitating it, and didn't even know Al saw this. Maybe Al doesn't even remember....our memory is certainly fallible.

Just like a skeptic, dismissing such an impressive story proof such as this! Clearly, this anecdote evidence proves the existence of NDEs! It's made a believer out of me.

Wait, what's that? Unverified? Fallible memory? Oh. Right.

It's an interesting story, though, really. Not something that I think would be eligible for admittance as proof of NDEs, though. For one thing, everything that Jim said. For another, with the information given, it's not even clear to me that this Al guy even exists. Is he the second cousin of a friend of an ex-girlfriend of an uncle of yours? That's how urban legends start - "this guy I know" seems to get around.
I am become destroyer of biology.

Offline MikeNH

  • Negative Vibe Agent
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
  • If God is anything, he's an underachiever.
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 11:36:38 PM »
Agreed with the above. First thing that came to mind is I see that stuff all the time on all the doctor dramas, most notably, Nip Tuck... They do that every damn time there's a surgery. Isn't it plausible that he just "remembers" something he saw on last weeks episode of Grey's Anatomy?

That's not necessarily the best explanation, but it beats an out of body experience in terms of plausibility in my book.

Offline Chew

  • Reef Tank Owner
  • *********
  • Posts: 8935
  • Juror #8
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 12:00:14 AM »
You mean a surgeon would rest his hands close to his armpits? Once they're gowned and gloved should their hands be touching anything but instruments and the patient?

Anyway, he no doubt met the surgeon beforehand and he probably exhibited this chicken-like behavior before the surgery.
"3 out of 2 Americans do not understand statistics." -Mark Crislip

Offline porovaara

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 12:11:25 AM »
I am in no way saying I believe this.

This story is from a National Geographic special, google it. Other attendees say this is normal for the doctor, so he must have done it in a pre-op talk right? Perhaps he speaks differently when he does this and a semi-conscious patient heard this and it was woven into the images he was already creating in his head?

The problem is everyone involved, the doctor, patient, another doctor are sure the patient would have had no idea of this behaviour. So someone must be mistaken besides the patient who won't admit it. What reason would this other person have for going along with the story? Most people around this particular situation would have done a personal inventory to see how they were involved to provide an answer... surely?

Everyone involved truly believes it, I'm trying to find a way we could convince them otherwise... outright derision is pointless here.

Offline MikeNH

  • Negative Vibe Agent
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
  • If God is anything, he's an underachiever.
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2010, 12:29:20 AM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Offline Ansalem

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2010, 12:55:26 AM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Just a good guess. Someone's cold reading without realizing they're doing it. Not that far-fetched.

Lots of people do this if their hands get cold. I do. My hands get cold easily, so I do it a lot. Maybe this surgeon just gets cold hands easily during surgery and wants to make sure they stay warm so they won't shake or something. Seems entirely plausible and a fairly easy thing to guess.

Offline MikeNH

  • Negative Vibe Agent
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
  • If God is anything, he's an underachiever.
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2010, 01:06:50 AM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Just a good guess. Someone's cold reading without realizing they're doing it. Not that far-fetched.

Lots of people do this if their hands get cold. I do. My hands get cold easily, so I do it a lot. Maybe this surgeon just gets cold hands easily during surgery and wants to make sure they stay warm so they won't shake or something. Seems entirely plausible and a fairly easy thing to guess.

Not so sure we're thinking of the same action... What I'm picturing, and what I think he's referring to, is when surgeons have their gloved hands by their sides at about chest height with their palms up, like they're ready for a scalpel to be put into it, and rather than pointing with their hands, they direct their elbows towards whatever they are talking about... I think you might be picturing them literally putting their hands under their armpits, which I think would be bad practice for hygienic reasons?

EDIT: The best part is that I searched on youtube for a nip tuck surgery scene, and within the first 6 seconds of the clip starting, he does EXACTLY what I was referencing.. at about :45 you can see the sort of position he's taking is similar to what I mean...

Nip-Tuck operation

...and again here.. BOTH surgeons are doing this in the first 5 seconds of this clip... actually this one is a bit disturbing so disregard the rest of the clip after that, but it again proves my point.. When I think surgeon and posture, I think this:

Rhea Reynolds surgery Nip/Tuck 3*4
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 01:11:01 AM by MikeNH »

Offline porovaara

  • Not Enough Spare Time
  • **
  • Posts: 120
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2010, 01:14:15 AM »
AHhh this makes the most sense. The uncommon elbow pointing method used by the doctor isn't uncommon at all, just that these sets of people hadn't seen anyone else doing it before in life or tv/movies. If it is common enough to be on tv/movies that is surely how it must have been woven into Mr. Sullivan's remembrance.

See how easy it is with more brains? :D

Offline Ansalem

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2010, 02:09:53 AM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Just a good guess. Someone's cold reading without realizing they're doing it. Not that far-fetched.

Lots of people do this if their hands get cold. I do. My hands get cold easily, so I do it a lot. Maybe this surgeon just gets cold hands easily during surgery and wants to make sure they stay warm so they won't shake or something. Seems entirely plausible and a fairly easy thing to guess.

Not so sure we're thinking of the same action... What I'm picturing, and what I think he's referring to, is when surgeons have their gloved hands by their sides at about chest height with their palms up, like they're ready for a scalpel to be put into it, and rather than pointing with their hands, they direct their elbows towards whatever they are talking about... I think you might be picturing them literally putting their hands under their armpits, which I think would be bad practice for hygienic reasons?


Yeah, that makes more sense, but doesn't every surgeon do that? If that's all it is, how the hell could this possibly make the news? He's basically guaranteed to be able to simply guess that. Which was why I didn't assume that's what was meant. Then again, assumptions...

Dunno how bad it would be to put your hands under your armpits, I assume it would be frowned upon, but it's entirely possible he might've done it without realizing it out of habit. Not so easily guessed at, but still a common enough action not to require more than a simple guess.

Either way, guessing can explain this situation adequately without needing to invoke the existence of a soul.

Offline MikeNH

  • Negative Vibe Agent
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
  • If God is anything, he's an underachiever.
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2010, 12:50:24 PM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Just a good guess. Someone's cold reading without realizing they're doing it. Not that far-fetched.

Lots of people do this if their hands get cold. I do. My hands get cold easily, so I do it a lot. Maybe this surgeon just gets cold hands easily during surgery and wants to make sure they stay warm so they won't shake or something. Seems entirely plausible and a fairly easy thing to guess.

Not so sure we're thinking of the same action... What I'm picturing, and what I think he's referring to, is when surgeons have their gloved hands by their sides at about chest height with their palms up, like they're ready for a scalpel to be put into it, and rather than pointing with their hands, they direct their elbows towards whatever they are talking about... I think you might be picturing them literally putting their hands under their armpits, which I think would be bad practice for hygienic reasons?


Yeah, that makes more sense, but doesn't every surgeon do that? If that's all it is, how the hell could this possibly make the news? He's basically guaranteed to be able to simply guess that. Which was why I didn't assume that's what was meant. Then again, assumptions...

Dunno how bad it would be to put your hands under your armpits, I assume it would be frowned upon, but it's entirely possible he might've done it without realizing it out of habit. Not so easily guessed at, but still a common enough action not to require more than a simple guess.

Either way, guessing can explain this situation adequately without needing to invoke the existence of a soul.

Yeah It's a possibility... Whether my idea is accurate or not, I'm fairly certain that the hypothesis of a NDE is further from the truth.  :-\

Offline Ansalem

  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1646
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2010, 01:58:56 PM »
It's a high probability hit. I'd venture to guess MOST surgeons do this.. Anyone happen to be a surgeon to discuss?

Yeah, that's the way I see it. Just a good guess. Someone's cold reading without realizing they're doing it. Not that far-fetched.

Lots of people do this if their hands get cold. I do. My hands get cold easily, so I do it a lot. Maybe this surgeon just gets cold hands easily during surgery and wants to make sure they stay warm so they won't shake or something. Seems entirely plausible and a fairly easy thing to guess.

Not so sure we're thinking of the same action... What I'm picturing, and what I think he's referring to, is when surgeons have their gloved hands by their sides at about chest height with their palms up, like they're ready for a scalpel to be put into it, and rather than pointing with their hands, they direct their elbows towards whatever they are talking about... I think you might be picturing them literally putting their hands under their armpits, which I think would be bad practice for hygienic reasons?


Yeah, that makes more sense, but doesn't every surgeon do that? If that's all it is, how the hell could this possibly make the news? He's basically guaranteed to be able to simply guess that. Which was why I didn't assume that's what was meant. Then again, assumptions...

Dunno how bad it would be to put your hands under your armpits, I assume it would be frowned upon, but it's entirely possible he might've done it without realizing it out of habit. Not so easily guessed at, but still a common enough action not to require more than a simple guess.

Either way, guessing can explain this situation adequately without needing to invoke the existence of a soul.

Yeah It's a possibility... Whether my idea is accurate or not, I'm fairly certain that the hypothesis of a NDE is further from the truth.  :-\

Pretty much anything would likely be closer to the truth than an NDE.

If we posit that souls exist, and that his soul detached itself from his body for a period of time before reentering his body during his operation, there are a great many questions that now require further investigation.

How does a soul see and hear? How was he able to retain his memory of the time during which his soul was not attached to his body? Are memories retained in the soul? If so, are souls eternal or are they created at some point after conception? If they are eternal, why does he not remember anything before birth? If they aren't eternal, why doesn't he remember being a baby? Are young souls unable to retain memories? Perhaps a soul doesn't enter the body until much later, probably some time between ages 2-5 when a person's first memory generally is recorded? Also, under what conditions can a soul become unattached from a body? Can a person intentionally detach their soul from their body? How far can it move away from the body? Does the body require the soul to remain alive? If so, for how long can a body survive without the soul? If not, is it possible for a person to never acquire a soul? Are there soulless bodies living among us? And, just to be thorough, can a soul survive without the body? If not, for how long can a soul survive without the body? Could a soul be created without a body? Are there detached souls wandering around?

...and so on. Those aren't even the crazy questions. I'll go with basically any off-the-wall explanation, so long as it's possible without positing a supernatural phenomenon, before I'll accept an NDE. There are just far too many new questions raised by NDE's. It's at the very end of the list of possible explanations.

I'd believe aliens were involved with the government in a world-wide conspiracy before I'd accept any explanation involving a soul. At least we have proof that aliens are within the realm of physical possibility (proof being our own existence).

Offline MikeNH

  • Negative Vibe Agent
  • Well Established
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
  • If God is anything, he's an underachiever.
Re: Al Sullivan, a NDE.
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2010, 02:33:35 PM »
 
Quote
There are just far too many new questions raised by NDE's. It's at the very end of the list of possible explanations.

Occam's Razor

 

personate-rain
personate-rain